Claire Warden on Nature Kindergarten & Rights-Based Education

Lukas: Where did you like to play as a child? I ask this question a lot because childhood memories shape us into the people we become. Welcome to Play it Forward, a worthy podcast. I'm your host Lukas Ritzen. Thanks so much for joining me. I talk a lot about play. I'm a dad, I'm a husband, I'm an educator, and I'm a playground designer. So I want to gather some of my favorite people who are advocates of children and nature and create a space to have an honest conversation about getting more kids outside. The power of play is very often underestimated and I think we all need a little more play in our lives. So Claire, now that I've hit record and living up to my standard of not hitting record at least I'm consistent, where do you like to play as an adult?

Dr Claire Warden: Well I live in kind of the middle of a field and there's an area that's just at the transect. It's like a boundary space between a big old pine forest and then the bottom part of that is like a deciduous open forest and there's a little babbling brook. It sounds like idyllic and it kind of is with little sloping areas and that's almost the place that I would say is one of my favorite places because it's just gentle and for some reason it's a haven in the middle of quite a harsh forest, especially the coniferous forest. You come out this very dark environment into this little open glade with this little brook and then head off into a more dappled light on the far side of the bridge. So that's where I like to go and in terms of playing in that space, I think it's about that sense of joyfulness that I have in my heart when I get to it. So although I might not leap from tree to tree, there's an absolute sense of freedom and joy when I go to that zone. It's a funny question to ask adults actually, it's like where do you play and then you get that blank look in their life, what do you mean? And we've got to reframe it, it's like oh do you have a hobby? They go oh yeah I've got a hobby. So is that play? Yes.

Lukas: I think you could have set the record for the busiest person in nature play for sure with the amount that you've got on, the research you're involved with, the study you're involved with. What's your why in keeping busy, so determined on your goals and impacting as many children as possible? But I think you've probably actually answered the question there by saying impacting as many children as possible.

Dr Claire Warden: So thank you. I think for me it's I've always been quite an active person and I enjoy the energy of being active. I think sometimes I need to slow down a little more but I think in our time, in our we have a very short lifespan really compared to the planet, I'm driven to do as much as I can in the time I have available to me. And at the moment people want to hear what I'm saying and they're interested in what I'm talking about and I think there's a sense that everybody has their time and this is probably mine and a group of us, not just mine but it belongs to a group of us who are real nature advocates. And I think if we can really put our energies into doing the things that we think are going to have the greatest impact, and for me that's very much about building relationship, it's very much about empowering people around me, giving them the skills and the motivation because then that leaves you a legacy and that legacy is the thing that I suppose I'm driven to do. So of course it's absolutely about impact for children and their time outside but I think for me I need to really connect to the adults so that they open the door.

Lukas: Yeah, and hearing in that statement that there is this acknowledgement of the finite, it's going to end eventually and it isn't just an end of a cycle. Does that come from your connection with nature and is that something that you transfer into the learning with children as well? There is a mortality, there is a cycle to this.

Dr Claire Warden: There is a cycle to it, I think. For me we talked a lot about my PhD last time and a big part of that PhD is the exploration of the observable and the unobservable world. And I think for me what that process of reading and thinking does is it helps you define my place really on this planet. And I suppose for me it's about the fact that I in the way I am at the moment have however many years left, but maybe 80, who knows how old I'll be when I finally shuffle off. But the point for me is that I do believe that there is then the energy I give up at that point will become something else. And so I sit on this bridge if you like between the scientific world of quantum biology and the understanding of constant energy and about how systems work alongside this sense of spirit and this unobservable framing. So I think for me that the cycles that you become aware of when you work with the natural world are about life and death, they are about everything has its moment and that what you need to do is to make the most of every moment that you're engaged with really and doing the things that you both love and feel passionate about.

Lukas: And the value in unobservable is something I wanted to chat to you about today. It comes up again and again in your work and I think it's really valuable for our listeners to get your breakdown and clarity on the value of the unobservable. So how would you convey that to our listeners?

Dr Claire Warden: I think the best way and what really started me off on this whole journey really was I think we spoke before about the fact that well I was about 10 years old when my dad died and that was a massive traumatic event for me completely out of the blue. And at those times you had no counselling about death or anything else and so for me my solace was to go for walks, was to go up this what we call the hill. And on the hill was this massive oak tree, I can still see it now, and that's where I used to stop. So I'd sit there by the oak tree and I think what's happening in those spaces is that you're aware of something and I couldn't have told you that at 10 years old. And there's this great writer called Caputo who talks about rifts and shifts in thinking and what he says is that in your lifetime in your journey through your life there will be these moments that just make you stop and think that make you make connections if you like to a bigger picture. And I'm not saying it's religion or spirit but I'm saying it just helps you understand the pattern of your life. And so for me that happened when I was at a lovely community, the railroad community in western Australia and talking to people about those elders talking about their beliefs and their sense of spirit. And so you begin to then understand that we're not a separate species and we are all just human beings on this massive planet. But so I had all of that going on in my head and then what happened was that I came back to Auchlone and started to really watch children. And when you really listen and tune into children something happens when they go from a very built environment with the walls and the noise and the adult design out and into the wilder spaces, the natural world. There's a calmness that comes upon them. We see higher percentage of children who are happy to be silent. They take just moments where they'll be out in the natural world. And so I began to question what is it that's happening here because we've done everything, we've measured heart rates, we've looked at pedometers, and all of that stuff is great and it's really good research and we need it because it's allowed us to say the cardiovascular development will improve and this will improve. But those are measurables and so they sit within what you call the western paradigm of research which is measurable. But the real essence of actually being with the natural world might not be measurable. It might be something that's altogether more ephemeral and actually is more about spirit and well-being and emotion. Well how are you going to measure those aspects of it? So for me I began to really drill down into what I meant and it was very much about trying to open up a doorway into a conversation about the lives of children being affected by observable things and us in our observation talking about the observables. But there's also the understanding and acceptance that something exists that is unobservable. And so you dip into this world of religion which is full of contention and then you dip into the world of spirituality and you have to then try and unpack some of that. And so for me I am now very comfortable with the fact that I embrace the observable and the unobservable world. I don't put my name to a religion. I think there is something that is ephemeral, a phenomena that can't actually be listed or written down but it happens in a moment between where a child almost touches or is in or truly with the natural world. And I think that's true for adults but we've got so many layers to peel away now because we've built them up through our adulthood. But in children there's this sense that although it's situated and it's very complicated, it's not as simple as just touching a piece of grass, but I would suggest that there is something happening there, a two-way relationship between the child and the rest of the natural world.

Lukas: Yeah, and how do you embed that as a part of the culture in your center and through your educators? Like because it is quite a big concept, but what is that step you take to open the door?

Dr Claire Warden: I think there are several things. I think with any new development what you begin to see is people go to the easy achievable, which is let me buy this mud kitchen. So they go to because they think that's the answer is to buy the resource, right? And then they get the resource and then it's okay and children are playing in it. But then you begin to really realize that actually if I increase the complexity of it by changing up the mods and doing all this sort of stuff, all that's great, we've taken another step. So everybody's on this journey as I would call it into understanding how children really connect to and work with the natural world. And some people will stay at the point where I just want a mud kitchen and I want this and so they objectify it if you like. And then there are other people who realized actually look at the fascination of that child holding those bits of mud, look at his precision about how he's choosing which rock to hold, look at the joy and absolute absorption in his face when he is studying the surface of a rock. So one of the things that you begin to do is to really slow it down, is to say let's look at these ephemeral things like slowliness, like silence, the idea of just the sense of freedom not only in your physical movement but also in your mind. And so what you find is that people are unaware perhaps of some of the work I'm doing but they're saying that we need to do some mindfulness, we need to do some sit what Joseph Cornell used to call a sit spot which basically means you sit out in the natural world. So they're going towards all of this through the lens of emotional well-being and involvement, especially children with high anxiety, stress, things like that. But I would argue those things are part of something that we all need, not just those children who might be identifying with key behaviors. So for me how do you put it in your practice? Slowliness, just working in nature time, not working in a time that's set by human agenda, giving children more freedom to actually lead the direction of what you're doing so that you don't

Dr Claire Warden: That the power balance is all sitting with the adult but there's a much more equivalent democratic conversation happening there. And the right of the child to have a childhood and to have a voice is something that's very aspirational that's happening in Scotland that's not really happening in Australia.

Lukas: Talking to people that I collaborate with about you coming on and it's kind of like we're going through a bit of a defeated stage right now. We're trying to get children's rights across the line and being in a culture that doesn't hear children. So how do you capture or just be able to honor children's rights in your service day-to-day?

Dr Claire Warden: I think the biggest part as you know is for me is this right to be heard and I think if you centralize right to be heard and the right to play those are the two. And I'm very proud actually to be in Scotland because it is now part of Scottish law. And one of the things about that ratification is that it then affects policy and everything else that we do but there's these moments every day that you can do that actually help a child develop a sense of agency and a sense of empowerment if you like. So for me it starts off with planning. So when we're doing the floor books when we're writing down children's ideas and theories and they're part of that, they're a co-author of the floor book. So that starts off your philosophy is that your adults and your children are working together. And one of the things I find quite interesting is that people confuse a child-led inquiry - one of the things about the child-led inquiry is that people think it's going to be chaos because they think oh well I'll just do whatever the child wants to do and actually that's not how a conversational relationship happens. When you meet your partner you don't say actually we'll just do everything you want to do now. The whole point of that democratic process is that you negotiate. Well which bar are we going to go to? Well I fancy this one what do you fancy? So you take that and that's the way that it works in that early years environment for me is sometimes it's the adult that's leading sometimes it's the child that's leading but better when they're both together so you're co-constructing it.

Lukas: Yeah that's cool right. Great that's all. So you mentioned children's rights in children's voice and that's the instant dismissal every time. Oh well you just can't let them go free-for-all you got to... No that's not where we're at and that's the challenge.

Dr Claire Warden: Is that I think some people who are making decisions who are putting the walls up that you're maybe meeting right now have that perception. And so part of what we have to do within the Scottish frame here is that there's been huge amounts of campaigning around what does this actually look like. And so for us you know day-to-day going back to that question in our clone it is about all right so they can't choose for example what snack they have because if they turn around and say well actually I'd like to have 400 sweets on Tuesday what was the point in asking the question because if the child then replies you're not going to give them 400 sweets on Tuesday because you're trying to do healthy eating. So what we do is we frame conversations we frame those interactions and really consult children when we feel that we can actually respond to what it is they want to do. So much of the nature-based stuff fascinates me because you know people are producing so much stuff I mean you could go on the internet and find 50 bright ideas for outdoor play. They drive me a little mad because I'm like okay so who's made up the 50 bright ideas for outdoor play but it wasn't the child. So straight away we've gone to an adult agenda and people say well I haven't got any ideas well actually it's your job to consult children to gather what their theories are. So at the moment here it's springtime and so there's a huge fascination around birds nests. So we put together this talking tub as we do and with various images and pictures of local birds and things for them to explore and test. And so anyway as a result of that they've decided that bird's nest are brown because a bird doesn't have a choice about what kind of colours to buy. So they've devised this bird's nest shop with all these different materials so they've got walls that we've got from the hedgerow they've got bits of grasses they've got bits of mud so the things that they put into that frame have been chosen by children. And then we'll look in the autumn time when the nests have been abandoned we'll look and find out the results of that. So that you know it wasn't that we sat down and said oh right everybody we're making a bird's nest shop. It was coming from children with a curiosity and a question to say why are all these nests brown they're really dull. And so from a child's lens you take that moment and then follow that inquiry. So there's an awful lot around how do you create a rights-based agenda that's one of them is to really consider how far up the planning route does the child's voice go. So if you say well I sat down and consulted children and I asked them what they wanted to do and they said oh we want to make birds and then you as the adult go off and get 50 templates for birds well you've only asked them once. The point of consultation and that approach that participation is that we have a continual conversation. So that to me is the root of it all to be honest with you and then from there there is of course there's freedom there's autonomy but again there are also times when we gather where it's actually going to be a conversation that an adult has thought of that they're thinking actually in order to progress this thinking it would be good if we could just focus on this for a minute. And I'm getting more concerned by some approaches which are now suggesting that the adult has no place in that early years environment and I find that really interesting because I've always worked in areas of significant multiple deprivation. So if I was always just to wait for children to give me what they want or what they could give me some of those children haven't had the luckiest start. So if they haven't had the luckiest start how do I then widen their awareness of possibility how do I then enrich their world if I don't have a co-constructive model that means that I can come in and engage and play with them in that sort of planning way. So it's a really interesting debate and I think part of the reason why people are saying oh you know the adult shouldn't get involved is because they know there's a lack of freedom but they don't quite know how to do that. So if you look at the models like around the bush kindy stuff and that group but you know very much let's go to the forest let's you know we're not taking anything with us we're just going to be free absolutely perfect but the time frame for that is maybe a day or a half day whereas another model such as the nature kindergarten model you're outside from 8:30 till six every single day all day. So you then put some intent in there you do have some structure you do have some enrichment going on. So it's about it's important I think people are sensitive to the needs of children the needs of family the environment the climate all of that sort of stuff when they start to talk about the model of outdoor education they're going to do and being confident as that guide you know you don't have to put your hand up as the guide not the authority.

Lukas: And my pet peeve is the Pinterest trap like I'll just Pinterest this I'm like no don't. Intentional outcomes we're there all day and there's a very blurry line between intentional teaching and intentional outcome absolutely. And it comes these things come from a place of love as well they have great intention but it's maybe just a bit lost in okay well I need to get this observation I need I'm here for you I want you to experience these things but the offset is a big adult hand into the cookie jar.

Dr Claire Warden: There is and I think sometimes you know that's the downside to technology I mean technology is fabby I mean look you and I chatted absolutely on other sides of the world and so there are magical things that happen through technology but the downside is that on that phone you are bombarded by the first but it's a bit like FOMOS and it's the fear of missing out. So you think oh there must be something else I must be missing it surely the answer can't be within me and I'm going well actually the answer is absolutely always between in you but it's also between you and the children you're working that's where the answer lies. So you might get inspiration from Pinterest but to take anything whether it's a model of education or an idea from Pinterest and impose it onto children for me then means that you're not working in the rights of children at all you're working with a slightly different agenda. So yeah by always be inspired by it but think very carefully before it becomes the driver for your work.

Lukas: That answer feeds beautifully into where I want to pick your brain on this. Your children designed your playground so how did you how did you facilitate that within like workshopping getting feedback because it's so challenging just I find it even just posing the question about play to a child instantly sets them in a realm it instantly sets them off down this corridor and you go no it plays actually and you can't articulate no place this bigger thing but no all their awareness is it's a slide and a trampoline and a swing and so how did you manage that and get past the adultifying of their voice?

Dr Claire Warden: Well part of it the secret for me does lie in the talking tubs. So when you have a talking tub if you imagine you as a landscape designer you are aware that you know there's things like pattern texture color you know all of those different elements of design but when you're a child you perhaps don't. So what you do is you get this talking tub and you say all right what can I put in here to represent pattern. All right well I'm going to find patterns on a flower and take that photograph and put it in I'm going to find patterns on a pavement that I might think they could afford and I'll put that in. So you take all this imagery that you've got bring it together and then put that into the tub and then still thinking about the line of inquiry of pattern in the environment you would then maybe take a photograph of a child making patterns with loose parts and stones and sticks and leaves put that in. You always want to look at inclusivity so you need to make sure that you've got a really good representation of the diversity of people and so you're making sure that you've got maybe got a child who's got some walking support or a wheelchair that's in there too and then you put the loose parts in. So then you might put leaves and sticks and a few bits of stone together now that's just around one line of inquiry about pattern. The skill then comes is that when you've got multiple lines of inquiry so it might be that the center you're working with wants to look at I don't know sand play as an exploration we would do a talking tub probably just on sand play and give them like you would do a mood board you would not do a mood board you would take the individual photographs and that means when you get together and those children are all around you and then we use a big black mat because it's visually nice.

Dr Claire Warden: and plain and you get about 13 children around it so I use the map for that reason nice and easy to organize and then the tub goes in the middle and we go in and we children then take out objects in the tub and what you're doing at that point as the adult is noticing engagement you're noticing language motivation prior knowledge you're doing all of that stuff so if a child comes along and picks up a picture and they go oh see this this is I go to a part where they have this and I love it because when I spin around on this swing all the patterns go whirly whirly whirly really really so straight away you're writing down those ideas you're writing down what they say and then a child might say well actually I like this picture that has got these pink flowers they're beautiful but I don't like this picture because it's got white fuzz and I don't like white flats so you just writing that down with the child's voice and then you're as the adult bringing together all of those desires those motivations and I think for children it's so process-led play that they might say I like that bench but your question is the adult is to be there in that moment and say oh I wonder what it is you love about the bench and then for you as an adult you're sitting there going oh yes that's where I'm going to sit and have my morning tea but for a child it says well I love it because I can get underneath it and actually I reckon I could jump off that bench so then you start to record movement so you can say things like actually we need objects to jump off John's really loving the idea of having a bench or you know something like that that he can get underneath and on top of because they want to pretend they've got bunk beds there's no way an adult designer is ever going to come up with the idea of bunk beds in an outside play area but because children have the expertise of play we can write down those brilliant ideas and then integrate them into our plans into our designs

Lukas: and what would be your question of inquiry when they're all sitting around the mat you put your talking tub in the middle and

Dr Claire Warden: I would frame it did that no I mean I do frame it so I would say something along the lines of well we've got this amazing opportunity as you all know we're going to be changing our outdoor play area but it's really important to us that we know what it is that you love about this space and they'll probably at that point start saying to you well I love the tree and I love that old bit and then you know then you say well let's have a look in here and see if there's any ideas because that's all the talking tub is it's a conversation framer if you like and so you know if you put in there 50 pictures of a climbing frame all right well you're going to get a climbing frame out don't you so don't put the climbing frame in if that's not something you want so it would be wrong and unethical I think to consult children about the design of a climbing frame if you a have no money and b have no intent of putting it in so far better to consult them about something you can actually achieve like let's talk about the types of plants what are the things we want to do well I like making mud soup what's in your mud soup I need green leaves and I need red leaves and I need brown dirt and I need some pine cones okay well let's make sure we find out then this is the list I'm writing it down in the floor book let's write down these things I've written your name so that you know it's your ideas let's see if we can work out which plants are going to give us those things that you need to make your mud soup that's how we do it

Lukas: awesome and some what's some other little scenarios where you would use that talking tub because it sounds awesome and I think it's something that see people can listen to the chat about and go yes we're doing this

Dr Claire Warden: that's the whole thing about the the whole floor book thing actually has four bits to it yeah but most people only ever focus on the documentation in the floor book so it has the communication book which is where you're widening it out to the local community who is it that's you know parents coming in outside agencies and then you've got the family books which are your individual documentation for children but they're very much family orientated so examples for example in the landscape designing we're talking about you might say to parents if you go to the park or if you're out could you take some photographs of your play space where you to be at the weekend we want to make sure that we're including your ideas within our landscape design that would go into a family book so each child has their own family book and then there's the floor book and then there's the talking tub so whenever probably once a week at least we're using the talking tub to do the conversation around the possibilities because that's what it is it's possibility thinking these are all the things on offer these are all of our possibilities which bit of this do we feel that we want to investigate further because without that it's going to a restaurant and not having a menu and so many people do that with children and they say well I asked them what they wanted to do and they didn't say anything I said well did you frame the conversation did you did you help them understand the choices and often people just look at me go well no but that's that's maybe what's stopping that from happening then so the talking tub opens up the conversation so we use them in any subject so at the moment we have a talking tub all around spring because that's the time of year it is here and we've got everything from a group of children who are fascinated by our little catkins that grow here from the hazel trees we've got a group that are really fascinated by the idea of nests and nest buildings at the moment they're making a massive giant nest for the whole nursery to get into so that's happening in the landscape at the moment so all of these things what you're doing is these are all your lines of inquiry and so line of inquiry and construction of a nest line of inquiry in terms of the beauty and aesthetic of the natural world so there's an intent behind the talking template I use them all the time so yeah

Lukas: yeah they're an interesting part for our listeners that aren't familiar with the floor book just as an overview

Dr Claire Warden: yep sure it's a large book that's done on the floor that's why it's called a floor and it really just documents with children their theories ideas fascination so it's very process-led it's done with children but it's your documentation which you can then analyze and then at the back of the floor book is where you have your the curriculum outcomes from the early years learning framework or from whatever program you're using so you can track back you can say actually through this lovely child-led inquiry we have been covering these outcomes as a group so it it gives you that framing if you the evidence that I think not just for outside agencies but also for children to revisit

Lukas: and where could I know you have some trainings and resources on floor books as well

Dr Claire Warden: yeah yeah that's all on the academy website so it's just mindstretchers.academy

Lukas: awesome so you've gone there and there's a whole series of free downloads called the inquiries which take case studies from all over the world now using it

Dr Claire Warden: yeah brilliant

Lukas: and I'll put the links in the show notes as well I'm trying to just my I'm racking my brain and oh I'm gonna do talking tub here and there and everywhere it's going to be awesome

Dr Claire Warden: once you get into it especially as a landscape designer I think you know the the idea of children being truly involved is always a fine line because we had even down to the process at the end of doing the landscape where the children are doing the risk assessment so the risk management often you know sits in the place of the adults but when you take for example photographs of a landscape you've just made and then you you bring that back for children and say right okay this is what you've now got you've got to be a bit humble because they will tell you the truth about well we asked you for a spider's web and really you just gave us a rope I'm not really getting that so so you take that because you've opened up the conversation so absorb that open criticism but it's lovely to then get the whole process from the initial ideas through the decision making right the way through to the children at the end reviewing the installation giving you the risk assessment and being part of that in one book and that's what the floor books do they show long term evolution of thinking

Lukas: you're going to be hooked you're going to you're going to be hooked

Dr Claire Warden: oh sure I already am I haven't done one yet

Lukas: risk assessments by children you've got to give me some notes on that how do you do

Dr Claire Warden: sure I mean I think it's quite an interesting one isn't it the risk often sits in the head of the adult and if you do a risk assessment and you don't involve the stakeholder then actually what's the point of part of your risk assessment makes you feel good but actually if you hand the idea of not being safe as possible but safe enough into the head of the child then then actually you you're going to really empower them to make wise decisions so for us it's always you know what's the tricky here which is the hazards you know what's great about doing this of course that's the benefits and what are we going to have to think about and that that's your procedures so you take those three elements and every time you're either dynamically outside with children just in the moment or whether it's it's doing a risk assessment of an object or an area of play we always have a sheet that has the children's voices on it

Lukas: a constant practice of could fall into the realm of advocacy for supporting children you're what's your voice what's your voice what's your voice it's so good because I feel constantly and not constantly but regularly you know I have to be the person to speak up now because I'm no one's thought of a child whatsoever and a friend of mine Hayano Moser he calls himself the childist because his mission is just to make people think of children and just be constantly no this is a part of it and yeah he's doing amazing work for parents educators who don't have access to a natural space and this is a question from Claire children of the wilderness she runs an amazing program my daughter went there so it's a it's a family day care but when the children get to their home base they jump in the van and then they're off they're off to the sea they're off to the rock pools the beach the mountains everywhere and they're just exploring every single time they they arrive so I asked her I said give me a question she said for parents and educators who don't have access to nature space how do we get them to value the outdoors and then inspire their children to value it too

Dr Claire Warden: I think that that hangs on your perception of what you mean by the outdoors so if I could take that back a step and say right okay for me the natural world is made up of the four elements of fire earth air and water so I look at the natural world and the presence and influence of the natural world inside my building outside in my outdoor landscape that I can then create and design with children and then this sense of wild which is this going beyond the gate to this bigger area which is often still affected by people but not so much so in that scenario what you're doing is looking at nature as some

Dr Claire Warden: thing that is almost elemental so my point is always to go to wherever parents are starting so we can have a conversation about well in a way do you like to where'd you like to sit on a sunny day and they'll say oh I'd like to sit on the deck I'll sit outside with a glass of wine oh great so you enjoy just being outside what is it you love about being in there oh you know it just kind of it just feels good and it's fresh air and just makes you feel great okay well well that's the air and the sunlight is giving you vitamin D and then they'll say yeah and I'll say something like and what's the daily routine I say oh you know I wake up have a shower all right well the shower really is just rain but it's warm rain so playing in that shower and having a refreshing shower is part of your daily routine and that's exactly what children love but you know they would prefer for it maybe to be something they can put their feet in do you like bath spas do you like that when you get manicure so what you're doing is saying water is the element you know sunshine is the element that the leaf so when you look indoors at many people's houses they have you know the designer plant or they have the beautiful herbs growing on the winter so well that's that's the plant kingdom it's just that it's not presented in an outdoor play environment so really you could almost argue that the only difference between the natural world outside and inside is the expanse of it and the fact that you're under the sky that's what outdoor play gives you it gives you this vista this I'm under the sky here so it's really an interesting thing for me when I come to Australia because a lot of people now are putting loads and loads of verandas and sun shades I understand all of that I understand the need for it absolutely but if you're a child and the only difference between inside and outside was the sky and you can't actually see the sky because it's been so covered in what does that mean what does that give us and so there is a more unpredictable element so we don't know when it's going to rain but you have more stable weather over there than we do here so there's an unpredictability about being outside you can control temperature inside you can't control it out so when people say to me oh we haven't got any nature I'm like well actually everywhere's got nature because you know you are nature you are nature but actually it's all around you you know the sunlight the shadows the small leaves so when I was working in China one of the things about Singapore actually was that we were doing a whole workshop around the potential of leaves and I knew what was going to come up so I went to the supermarket and beautiful markets absolutely fabulous and so I just bought a load of vegetables brought those in and we did the whole workshop just on vegetables because I knew the objection was going to be poisonous dirty it was good because that's their starting point so if you take away that and get them to the point of fascination and joy and intrigue and curiosity hopefully that then opens the door so I think we can all do something is the answer to that it's just finding that what that little tiny element looks like

Lukas: and also what I hear there is like over like anticipating the objection

Dr Claire Warden: yeah that's for me as the trainer yeah absolutely well and getting over that and giving him the maybe the guidance once again to give him the materials to get over that blockage if you will

Lukas: you touched on it there sorry go on

Dr Claire Warden: no I was just going to say I think there you know you can find people who are a little bit purist about nature-based work and you know this is the only way and I'm like well there are millions of ways of us doing this so I suppose what I was trying to make really clear there is that there shouldn't be that sense of this is right and this is wrong it should be much more about the relationship that we build as a human community that helps us in essence really start to grow and understand the relationship we have with the wider natural world but you've got to have millions of different starting points for that to take place and yeah it's about being humble I think and just realizing that everybody's on a different point in that journey and we can all get there we could all move forward but we'll be doing it at different rates in different ways

Lukas: yeah and as it's gained traction and there's more people coming into nature play now in more of a service provider type of realm it's something I've definitely observed that's like well we do it the right way well our standards are this and this but also just because you're right in your way doesn't make me wrong in my way

Dr Claire Warden: absolutely absolutely constantly having to overcome that and I can be right and you're wrong and that's okay as well I've heard you say it time and time again you've got inside outside and beyond to paraphrase you but then what we're forgetting in the realm and something you mentioned and it might feed back into the unmeasurable is how do we honor the inside being internal of the child and then whatever I mean yeah it has two meanings for me most people realize you know when I'm talking it's always about location outside beyond its secondary meaning that came through in the thesis was inside as in self soul identity who we are as humans and so there's an awful lot of that internal not just for children but for adults and for the human race and then the outside is our relation to the people around us and our relation to people around us is about community it's about you know if you're in a setting it's about making connection to family and things like that so in that sense the outside is just our small bubble if you like that we're in and then beyond is about us as a global society and so your global society really is the thing that I was most fascinated by and the international association that you mentioned at the beginning you know the international association of nature pedagogy was born because there were so many people coming in saying oh you know we want to be part of a movement and so you know we've really just limited it now to the Facebook group but that's lovely because it's self-sustaining it's about sometimes we'll put up just a stunning picture so this morning I put up and shared a picture of a beautiful piece of film of a swan coming in through the mist and it just as an adult gives you that sense of joy that that might be enough just to help you get through a moment today who knows the impact of it but it's a mesh work and I think I keep talking about mesh work some people keep looking at me going you mean a network and I'm like net because a network has dots and it has defined hubs whereas a mesh work comes from Ingold's work really and it's this whole thing I talked to you about last time about the mycelium and the underneath mushrooms that has no beginning or end it has no single points in it it has just a coexistence in it and so for me that's what the international association is it's a mesh work so it's not led by me everybody shares stuff into it and so it has to be something that is owned by all because if it's owned by all it will continue if it's owned by one it will fail so that's been really fascinating and we've used that same idea same philosophy of mesh work within the virtual nature school which has been the initiative we've done through the lockdown

Lukas: yeah so I know it's it's accessible to all people now the online nature school if I understand is correct and so what's it look like give us an overview of what online nature school is because I know there's those people out there going you can't have online in a nature school Claire Warden's about to prove you wrong

Dr Claire Warden: well the first thing is that it it's interesting because the virtual nature school has a children's committee and it has a group of advisory people from all over the place and from Scotland because it was started here and so the children will say to you things like oh I just you know I went off and I looked at that little film because we what we do basically is every week so the children said they wanted to do various things so they were with me at the time so it was easy to do they'd say thing I want to do bones and big teeth and you so right we'll do dinosaurs but we're going to slow it down here so we're going to really look at skin and we're going to look at how we gather evidence and we're going to look at you know the skin coverings and we're going to look at feathers and so all of this sort of stuff so we made films basically so there are five films in every provocation you don't have to use the films you might decide you want to watch them yourself as an adult and then just take some of the concepts forward so it's a very flexible school in that sense and then what happens is that we devise this a new thing called an inquiry tracker which essentially allows you to upload imagery like a floor book but it's a digital floor book you upload imagery into this mesh work of community of people all doing the same thing all inspired by child led inquiry and then we operate like a professional Facebook group but it's it's not as open and accessible as Facebook but anyway you come into that floorbooks club and so we then share all of that learning from it so part of it is the lens of the child who is watching the films and just playing and they're just starting points for children at home or for practitioners sometimes it's more about developing the pedagogical principles and so the adults use watch the films and then they come into the inquiry tracker and then we talk a little bit more so it's a coaching tool I suppose so it has all these different threads to it I mean if you go to virtualnatureschool.org that would be the best thing to do and so it has this very much this children at home children in setting and then practitioner focus so essentially in summary it's it's a series of films made with and yeah four children to look at how we can create really exciting child-led inquiry which is centered on the natural world that's what it's all about

Lukas: and you've had an uptake from the government as well because they've seen the better

Dr Claire Warden: yeah that was delightful yeah so it came out of the pandemic and myself and a really good friend Bravo the nurseries were all shut and we went into immediate lockdown and Bravo phoned me up and he said you know how you doing and I'm like I feel disempowered I feel helpless so I need to do something because that's the way I cope with it so I said what could we do so at that point it started where I would sit and meet children at ten o'clock every morning we would watch one of the films they would either tell me it was rubbish tell me it was good don't tell me what they were gonna do you know and that's the point isn't it if someone says do you want this and you go well no I don't want it but I want this then great okay decision made and then we would go away and play and I would meet them over lunch so we would eat lunch together because that's a time when most of them were sedentary so I would get my food they'd get theirs we'd sit together with their families and so that got so popular I was pretty much doing it every single day and so it was fabulous during the first lockdown actually and those children then we had children in the hub because we'd opened as emergency care so they would engage with the children online so it's been totally phenomenal

Dr Claire Warden: And I think when you look at this idea of the devolved leadership which is where you're really giving agency to people around you including children and families then what happens is that magical things come out of it so out of the virtual nature school at the moment there's a group of children who are now making films on makaton signing of nature we've got a group who are talking in gaelic so they're now doing a whole series of gaelic films all made and designed by children so yeah I'm very proud of it yeah very proud of it amazing.

Lukas: You blow me away I'm stumped anyone that knows me now I'm rarely lost for words but I'm just what are you doing with your life it makes an impact Claire I what you said earlier about the possibility thinking can you just unpack that a little bit for me just because I love it.

Dr Claire Warden: So one of the things I need to acknowledge is possibility thinking really came from Anna Craft sadly not with us anymore and I think it's really important to acknowledge where we get these ideas from because that's just the way we should all be doing it and so Anna Craft's work was around almost philosophical thinking and she was trying to really support people to look at this idea of children having the awareness of possibility as opposed to the idea that you know you can do this or this so she did lots of work around the wandering question so I wonder how I wonder if what if you know what if the sky was yellow what if the all the flowers in the world were black so she would really push out some of that philosophical ideas for me I suppose it resonated with my work because I am a divergent thinker and that means I'm both in my own world I suppose I'm a what was I called the other day an educational entrepreneur so I mean my own thinking is that I am very divergent yep I also believe that children should be given divergence not convergence and that's one of the issues I think we have is that constantly children are being pushed to think in the same way as everybody else whereas actually I believe more individuality and about although you're an individual you're part of a wider community of learning but you're still an individual with your own thoughts and ideas so Anna Craft's work about okay let's think about possibilities here not not about definitions and about you know set outcomes so in my work it's I suppose had already been shown through the fact that we don't write about next steps for learning I always write possible lines of development so for me this you know when you say in your planning you can do next steps and I had you know it's my next step I might have changed my mind tomorrow so for me there's always got to be that world that word of it's the possible line of development it's where we hope to go next in our planning but if it rains tomorrow then we're jumping in puddles we're not going to be doing what we thought we were doing so yeah that's where it comes from and linked in with honoring the possibility and possibility thinking is also honoring time and freedom.

Lukas: So what's your techniques in honoring that in children in childhood.

Dr Claire Warden: I think it's about understanding the pace of time and I recently had a bit of a health scare and I think what happens when you go through something that is that it it does another one of those caputo moments it's that moment when you go holy moly this you know we've really got to think about every moment and so one of the the things that we do is we talk about slowliness as I talked about earlier on I one of the books I wrote called Nurture Through Nature was the book I wrote after watching Emily who was only two at the time 16 now but she was two at the time and I watched her I wasn't working and I was with her and her her fascination with you know the raindrop that just was dripping and the the flower blossoms that came out on this tree helped you realize that actually slowing it down to nature time is a really good healthy thing to do because it means that we're not rushing through life but that we're savoring every moment and so you'll have seen if you've seen the virtual nature school stuff the stuff we send out for parents literally says take a moment it lasts a lifetime because what we wanted people to really do was just you know not make a you know massive change to their lives but the next time their child's looking at a dandelion or the next time their young child wants to put a foot in a puddle take the moment because if you don't take that moment then you you lose all of that I think it was Jason Donovan that says you don't one of his songs you don't realize how important a moment is until it becomes a memory yeah so I was crack on that's that's exactly it so so not thinking there's a bigger thing to be done you know oh we're gonna go and do this we're gonna study the whole of the animal kingdom in a week and I'm no let's just look at feathers let's let's just look at something small but do it really well and enjoy the moments together yeah.

Lukas: One of the something I reflect on quite a bit in watching children and how they're experiencing the world now is thinking what are the memories that so many children are going to be looking back on that represent their childhood and it really frightens me.

Dr Claire Warden: I think one of my hopes is that I was having a conversation with somebody about pigs recently and and Peppa Pig came up and and I don't know if you've got Peppa Pig but Peppa Pig is everywhere and I just thought you know I wonder if in your childhood you will have the chance to see a pig for real will your distortion of the natural world actually be an extension of what you've seen on that screen which is Peppa Pig which is two-dimensional very flame flat very very plain but I mean so you think I I believe that the one good thing that's come out of this pandemic in this country and I can't answer for everywhere has been the fact that I am seeing more and more children outside because that is the place where parents have felt that they are safer you know they've got to the point where the four walls have just been too much so we're seeing people going into parks I think one of the challenges for us is to make sure that it doesn't dissipate that it doesn't just go back into being just a trend I need to get it now really embedded in people's understanding and about actually we need to be more sustainable we need to understand this is the planet that we're on and how vulnerable we are and let's face it you know we were reminded of that by something as small as a virus so so actually I think it's brought a humility to people to humans which is a good thing if we can just get them to remember it yeah.

Lukas: I love the framing of this virus has made people reflect on what they need not what they want absolutely and yeah absolutely and I heard through the grape vine that you received a letter from David Attenborough so being a fanboy of David Attenborough I've got to know the details so what's what's really lovely.

Dr Claire Warden: Is that I think for me he's always been my hero I grew up watching films of David Adam and I'm sure he had an influence in terms of my love of the natural world and and I think for somebody who has always been an advocate for the natural world he brought it into the lives of so many children and I'd finished my PhD and a friend had said to me you should send that to David Attenborough and I was no what you know no he's way too important to read my PhD why would he be interested in what little me has written about my philosophies and blah blah blah and so you sit there don't you and sometimes you've just got to be a bit brave and it's the most nerve-wracking thing I mean I've spoken in front of three four thousand people and I was more scared sending him my PhD thesis and so I sent it off and someone said just spend it and see what happens Claire take the risks so I did and I forgot all about it really to be honest and got on with life and then one day this letter came it was an envelope and it was a recycled envelope with a label over the top beautifully handwritten and I opened it up and there was this letter from David handwritten in the way that he does just saying thank you so much and how much he'd enjoyed it and how he was honored that he'd had any influence in my life and urging me to keep going and saying you know what a great job I was doing so I just felt over the moon I was personally I was absolutely in floods of tears because when you get that letter from somebody who you have just idolized I suppose all your life from when you're a young young girl and then they bother to take the time to write to you handwritten letter I thought you know the most you're going to get is an email no handwritten letter so now it's framed on the other side of the room where I'm currently speaking from and in those moments when you're sitting there going I'm too tired you know fed up I can't do this anymore I look up and I see his letter and so that's the thing keeps me going yeah so I don't know if he realizes that that's the impact he's had on me but through my life I think you know I'd to think that I'm doing the same for other people giving them some form of inspiration and helping them feel a sense of agency so yeah he's definitely he's the person that is my one.

Lukas: And for people that are starting out their journey they're not at the level of getting a handwritten letter from David Attenborough yes but they're just starting out what bit of advice would you give those people that are just starting out in this journey in supporting children in nature.

Dr Claire Warden: To believe that no matter how disempowered you feel at times every single action you make has a ripple effect so whether it's the fact that you know you're in an environment where there's just you and you know 20 children and you think well I'm not going to have a big effect here putting your energies into those children will become those moments that will become those memories that you know when they're talking to their parents or they're talking to their extended family or even when they're grown-ups they would think back to a moment where they had a sense of muscle memory maybe or just a deep held emotional memory of something that you did with them so I think I'm a great believer in the fact that if you if you make that little ripple that actually and put your energy into things that you can actually control and influence gradually that zone of influence gets bigger and bigger and and the more energy you put into it then the things that maybe seem too big to even challenge that are zoned that's the zone of concern those things gradually become affected by it and so yeah I would say just believing in yourself that every action you take has an impact.

Lukas: Well I can assure you that you are motivating you are inspiring so many people from around the world including myself oh thank you so so so so much from all realms so I chat to you and be I can be a better dad and also give myself a break and also by playground designer and do this and this and this so thank you so much for joining us again on Play It Forward it's an absolute honor I can't wait to talk to you again and go for the hat trick and absolutely yeah and I'll put everything we chat about today including floorbook floor books thinking tubs I can't wait to share that with so many people so thank you so much for joining us again Claire you're no legend.

Dr Claire Warden: Thank you so much for the invitation chat anytime take care now bye.