Hyahno Moser on Children's Right to Play

Lukas: Where did you like to play as a child? I ask this question a lot because childhood memories shape us into the people we become. Welcome to Play It Forward, a Worthy podcast. I'm your host Lucas Ritzen. Thanks so much for joining me. I talk a lot about play. I'm a dad, I'm a husband, I'm an educator, and I'm a playground designer. So I want to gather some of my favorite people who are advocates of children and nature and create a space to have an honest conversation about getting more kids outside. The power of play is very often underestimated and I think we all need a little more play in our lives.

Lukas: My next guest is a father, a husband, an adventurer and nature lover, and most of all an advocate of neighborhood play for all. His commitment to children's rights and play have sparked a revolution in nature play in Australia and has worked tirelessly to make his region the most playable city in the world. Today we're talking about our favorite topic - children in nature, neighborhood play-based initiatives, and how we can all support children within our communities. Back on the Worthy podcast, he was our first guest ever on Play It Forward and he's back again. Welcome to the podcast and Play It Forward, Hyahno Moser.

Hyahno Moser: Thanks Lucas, thanks for having us back.

Lukas: Yeah, thanks for taking time to have this really important conversation. No problem, most of all a good friend and play advocate. And we're both on the board for the Australian Institute of Play, as a disclaimer there, just trying to reach as many people as possible.

Hyahno Moser: Yes, just got this little mission. It's not daunting at all. As I was talking to people involved with Play Scotland Charter, they're like "well it took 15 years to get the charter in place" and I thought "all right, this is a long game."

Lukas: Wow, there you go. We should start now.

Hyahno Moser: Yes, absolutely. We should have started 15 years ago, it would have been perfect.

Lukas: But we generally start out by asking where you played as a child. We've done that, that's old hat for you. So a better question I think would be: what does the place where you wish all children played look like?

Hyahno Moser: Well that's a great question. You know, the dream for me is that the neighborhood being is restored as the central sanctuary for children and their play. I know for most adults now their neighborhood was the most important place for them as a child. The most important - if you were to ground a child back in those times, you know the adults of today, if you were to take that adult back into his childhood and say "you're grounded, no play today," just for one day, even that would hurt immensely the heart of that child. And why is that pain so significant to that child? It's because everything that a child needs, the neighborhood gives them. Everything the child desires, the neighborhood is giving. And what is it that's been giving to them? Access to fun, friends, freedom, and fluency, which is challenge.

Hyahno Moser: Now why are they so important to kids? Because innately inside of each child is an adult waiting to become, and the neighborhood is the journey. That is the ground - it's ground zero for that adult to become. It's how they practice and test and trial everything that's meaningful to them. It's not just that, even - it's so much more. It's also a place where kids make sense of everything that's going on for them right now. I know here we are in the middle of a pandemic - I've heard of some incredible games that kids are playing in order to make sense of the pandemic. They're playing it out because it's front of mind for them, and you know this is how they work through their stresses. This is how they deal with the traumas of their lives, no matter how big or small. Play is the way for kids to make sense and process and test all these theories.

Hyahno Moser: So back to the original question - what does a place where all children play look like? A place where a child can walk outside their front door and they're not scared. They're not scared of where they live. And they can look up and down the street and they know where the kids are. They know their names, they know their ages, they know nuances about those children. They know what that child likes to eat, what their child likes to drink, what their favorite games of their child is. They know who are their best friends. Potentially they have several backups of friends if their best friend isn't there, so they can do that either side. But it's not just the kids - they also know the adults in those streets. They know the ones where they can rely on for help, the sources of support. And also the parents behind those children also can walk out on those streets and also know their neighbors and their friends.

Hyahno Moser: I'm not describing a utopia here, by the way. This is something that we all had, and there are still pockets of it going now, but it's definitely not the norm for childhood these days. So that culture of a sanctuary for children to test and trial who they are and master it largely has disappeared. And correlatingly, we have all these issues growing for children. Social isolation and loneliness is earmarked as the next biggest health concern for our community, and kids are right in amongst it all. They are lonely and they are isolated when they don't have access to a neighborhood for play, when they can't walk outside their front door.

Lukas: And you've mentioned briefly there what are the long-term impacts that we're seeing, because this has been ongoing for a while now. And you're on the front line, you're out in neighborhoods trying to activate play and seeing the impact on these communities. What are the standout long-time impacts from this deprivation?

Hyahno Moser: It's a sense of distrust and fear of each other that's so embedded that they can't move past it. And that distrust and fear reduces the horizons of children and their capacity to play. I've watched communities that have had goals of connecting their kids, and the adults cannot move past their distrust. They will not let their child go off to play with another child without them. So then the child's play is totally dictated by the adult's timing frames - when the adult gets home from work, when the adult's not too tired to go out and take their child out to play, when the adult's got some capacity to make that happen. All centers around that adult agenda, you know. And that puts a lot of pressure on the adult, the parents, but more importantly it stops the child being able to do their own thing and be self-directed.

Hyahno Moser: Kids need time away from their adults. They need the space to do things on their own, you know, in an age-appropriate fashion of course. Although, you know, I've seen a lot of older brothers and sisters taking care of some brilliant two and three-year-olds out in the street without parents, you know, and that in itself is gold. You know, some people would say "oh you're putting too much responsibility on those children." Maybe under certain circumstances, but there are a lot of circumstances where that's completely okay. And where the child can go out into the community and that older child then gets the sense of responsibility - they feel more grown up, they feel like they're contributing and they have some ownership over their siblings. You know, it creates great practice for being an adult.

Lukas: Yeah, and you're seeing this day to day in your role, and it's a very unique role. Could you break that down for our listeners who's prior at Nature Play Queensland and then moving over - break that down? It's exciting.

Hyahno Moser: I love this role because, you know, I loved my time at Nature Play Queensland too, and that was super important and it laid the pathway for where I am right now. This role is more solution focused and it's got the potential to have significant impact because it's taking pretty much the population scale approach to change. And all that change is implemented by a community focusing on increasing the playability of the community. And we're talking about a whole city.

Hyahno Moser: So across - I mean I'm working in Logan, and most people know Logan from a point of external view - outside they hear about the disadvantage and social issues that are related to that, and they're definitely there. But they're there in most communities. And if you were to ask the child - if you take a child-centered view on these things, which I always like to do - the child doesn't see any of that. The child sees none of that external view. Children will listen to what other people tell them about their community, but they will make their opinion of their community based on their experience as well as that external view. But from my experience, if a child has connection with their community - face-to-face connection - and it's a place where kids can play with other local friends, it totally overpowers any social stigma put on, you know. And that in itself is an amazing, beautiful thing.

Lukas: Yeah, personally living on the Gold Coast now with a family on the Gold Coast, but actually spending a big chunk of my childhood in the Logan region, and you've prompted me to reflect on that quite a lot and my experience there. And it was only upon reflection as an adult I created that stigma around the area - only within reflection because it wasn't at the time. When I reflect at the time, it was the bush behind the housing commission estate where I was, it was the times in the parks and the skates and the rides to schools and the waiting for the bus - all the things I remember. And there was none of that stigma.

Hyahno Moser: Yeah, that's right. I grew up in a similar community, you know. I mean, South Australia was a very disadvantaged area in the terms of how they classify these things, but to a child it meant nothing to me. I had an amazing neighborhood that my neighborhood provided me and bestowed on me all the gifts and the opportunities to go into the person sitting in front of you right now.

Lukas: For our international listeners, can you give an overview of the size and the reach of what's going on in Logan?

Hyahno Moser: Yeah, so Logan as a population is in Queensland, Australia. It's made up of about 10 mega councils or mega shires, I suppose you would say. And Logan City Council has 66,000 children in it. Yeah, and I think the population - the overall population - is just over 300,000 in that city.

Hyahno Moser: In terms of scale and size it's huge. I think if you were to drive from one side of the shire to the other, you would still be driving after about 50 kilometers. So it's pretty big and it's wedged in between Brisbane and the Gold Coast.

Lukas: Going back to your role and what's the day-to-day look like for you within what I know you're one of the busiest people in play. I think it's you and Claire Warden that are the busiest people. So give us a breakdown what that day looks like.

Hyahno Moser: A lot of relationship building. So I'm working for an organization at the moment called Logan Together. I'm also on the board of the Australian Institute of Play which has been established, so I'll get to that story. So Logan Together is a community development project and it's called a collective impact approach. Collective impact is a framework for community development and it's a framework for social change. The way it works is it builds the relationships and empowers the community to make the change that they need. And that's really important - it's got to be driven by the community, owned by the community for that change. So you're here sitting talking to me and it sounds like I've had all this, I've been doing it, but it's not - it's actually the community.

Hyahno Moser: So in terms of the day to day what I do, I talk to community all the time constantly. I have a bazillion relationships with the community. I've been really blessed to be able to establish so many great relationships across the city of Logan. Currently I'm working with about 87 different organizations from schools to healthcare services to early childhood services to community hubs and all the way to a whole gamut of parents. Those relationships, working with those people, talking to them about play, talking to them about the children that they support and what they're seeing and the changes that they would like to make. And probably the most important people who I have relationships with at the moment are the kids. So there's a lot of children in Logan who have lots to say about their play.

Hyahno Moser: It's really important for me - there's a great thing in the collective impact framework: nothing about them without them. So how do we make change without children? How do we make change without parents? How do we make change without all the stakeholders involved in making a neighborhood more playful? You can't. Sometimes you've got to take the lead and push. What's that Margaret Mead saying? Don't underestimate the power of a small group of people to change the world, and in fact that's the only thing that's ever done it. And that's what happens here. We're working on in communities, in streets, in schools in Logan and we're focusing on supporting the whole city of Logan - anyone who wants anything to do with play to get on board. And my role is to support them with how they want to make that happen in their spaces. And they are getting on board in droves.

Lukas: That's fantastic because we've got this perception that play is this thing that's been forgotten and play is this thing that used to be and it's kind of this long reach at the moment. But you actually being in neighborhoods and actually having a dialogue with people, they're telling you they need it, they want it?

Hyahno Moser: Yes. I mean this goes back to the advocacy stuff that I did at Nature Play Queensland. A lot of the time all the questions you need to ask is what did you do as a child? What gifts did they give you and can your children do it now? And if the answer is yes then well done. If the answer is no then would you like to do something about that? And most people do.

Lukas: Lenore Skenazy was on the last episode of the podcast and she said one of the most impactful things she likes to ask parents is what were the things that you enjoyed as a child and out of that list what are the things you don't let your child do now. I've been watching kids in neighborhoods at the moment that I've been working with such immense joy and so many incredible benefits from that and then they're just doing that in their street. I mean when I say that it's because when I reflect on my childhood my roaming distance was at least about 10 kilometers especially on my bike. Once I got wheels I could go large distances and I would not be expected to be home until the sun comes out. That's something that a lot of parents I don't think could add on their list.

Hyahno Moser: No, no way, no definitely not.

Lukas: One of the things that I really love to see is capturing that child's voice. We jointly did a project together with the Days of Play and then having that dialogue, sitting the children in the throne and asking them what they think about their play. What were some of the outcomes of collecting the data from child's view of play in their neighborhoods?

Hyahno Moser: A really important thing from that day is that most kids don't understand what a neighborhood is. That was really important. If I talk to children who - and what I mean by that is that conceptually most of the children I talked to didn't even have a framework for what a neighborhood is. And they started to try to define it, they would say "oh do you mean my school?" and I'm like "is it on your street?" No. "Is it close to you?" No. "Do you mean my sports club?" No, that's not your - I mean is it in your street, is it where you live?

Hyahno Moser: So what I learned was that a lot of kids don't have a framework for understanding in their brain what a neighborhood is. But if you ask a child who has that community of kids where they play, they make the leap straight away. When you ask that question around what do you play in your neighborhood, "yeah sure I do" and I'm like "well who do you play with?" and they tell me who they're playing with. If they don't have that direct experience with a neighborhood, they don't have a framework for it. And what that means is it has no value to them. It's got no - it's not there as that sanctuary I described at the start for them. It's got no value, it's just the place where they live.

Lukas: It's like describe to me something that you've never engaged with, don't have an understanding of, never seen, touched, felt anything, but describe it to me now. Look at it and now care for it.

Hyahno Moser: Yes exactly. And I mean I'm a huge advocate for what Richard - the great work that Richard Louv's done when he talks about the last child in the woods and the nature deficit disorders. And for me a lot of that work is the foundation for what I'm doing. I'm here having a conversation with you about getting kids out into their communities because that's how they're going to find nature and they're going to build connections with it. And that's how they - when they climb those trees, when they play in those wild bush settings, when they dig in dirt and they muck around and find all those incredible wonderful things that are in nature - that's how they build that. But first they've got to get outside the front door and they've got to do it in a self-directed way.

Lukas: Through your experience and seeing that these parents are asking for it, the communities are asking to get their children outside more to play, to make safer neighborhoods, where are we falling short? Because if it's happening from that end, where's the blocks to actually make this like get that critical mass so it's just completely adopted?

Hyahno Moser: That's a great question and I think it really - I've been pondering this one for quite a long time too. And there's lots of little things you can say - screens, technology, you can say fear, anxiety, you could say all those things and traffic and cars, and they are logistical things, they are things that have filled our lives. But they have filled our lives because - and I think it gets down to this - intentionality. As parents who are the gatekeepers to all this, we have never had to be intentional in this space. My neighborhood was there and accessible to me because my parents grew up in a time where they expected when I went out into the community that I would be fine and safe and okay. So they never had to be intentional about it.

Hyahno Moser: Now we have reduced the horizons of children. And if there are opportunities for freedom and self-direction to spaces where adults are constantly supervising, we have to then be more intentional about it. We have to create those into those communities intentionally. And when we do do it, the adults automatically recognize - the grown-ups automatically recognize the benefits for the children and they take pride in it. That's the thing. They're like "wow look what we've done, this is amazing, look at the gifts we've given our kids." And they see the benefits of their children automatically. And I think it all just gets down to us for the first time in history having to be intentional about this. We have to say our neighborhoods are the most important place for our kids in their development. It's their sanctuary, they need it and we have to make it a space for them and a right.

Lukas: And a right. I love this phrase from Richard Louv - he says we need to act before we forget we have forgotten normal.

Hyahno Moser: Yes, I think we're right in that void at the moment between activating people's nostalgic brain as parents to go "oh actually yeah" but also getting over the leap of not having that generational education from our parents to guide us as parents how to support our children. So it's kind of like we need to reform that link in the chain to get this generational learning to continue in this generational value of the rights of our children. As intentional or unintentional as it was for a generation ago, it's still just as integral to hold that link together.

Hyahno Moser: And it's going to take a leap of faith for parents now because I think a lot of folks have already gone way down the rabbit hole. Like I've seen it firsthand - the distrust and the fear of the community is so palpable for some folks that they just can't move beyond it. They're not willing to take risks, they think their children are so precious and they're right, they are. But we can get back to what our kids need and they need that autonomy, they need that self-direction, they need that freedom, they need those places where they can access them just outside their front door. They need other children. They need them more and different at certain stages of childhood than they need their parents. And just because they are precious doesn't mean they're not capable.

Lukas: Exactly.

Hyahno Moser: And they build that capability by experience and if parents are fearful and anxious I get it then for the first little while go with them then make a plan to not be there and we're not talking or this isn't all in theory I might highlight to our listeners you've got on the street literally on the street perspective of this so give us some examples of the challenges you're facing from a parent community side and then we will go into some examples of how people have overcome that and then the amazing impact and go into those articles and feature stories done on news channels and things now so in terms of the challenges the ones that I've come up with come up against again that intentionality and people making a commitment to it all and keeping that commitment at the forefront the adult agenda can quickly creep in I've seen people start this journey on to create neighborhood plays networks and start building rebuilding those local connections for kids and with all great intentions to start up with but then you know other things creep in and they get tired and they get fatigued or they forget that the child is at the center of it all or you know unwilling to look at themselves as the barrier yeah because I mean that's one of the biggest hardest things that our parents you know I'm not here to put guilt on parents I'm not you know for me this is the child I'm at the child I'm focusing specifically from the child you know and as a parent you know we have to face up to facts how we the block how are we making this impossible for our kids to connect is it our fear is our anxiety if it is that what are the legitimacies of those fears what real outcomes happen well I know a lot of people who are scared on a day-to-day basis of things that they've never had any experience of you know when was the last time you were in danger when was the last time your child was in danger I mean for some people it will be a real thing and that's like that's for for the majority of us I've talked to so many kids now who their top prior their top fear of their community is being kidnapped and then I asked them so has a kidnap happen in your community oh no have you do you know anyone who's ever been kidnapped they don't know anyone either so that's been pushed onto children that they could get taken at any time you know we can arm our kids with great advice on how to be alert to the to the to the perils of stranger danger you know and and you know and what to do about those things there's there's great risk management strategies I suppose you could say you know for those for those kids you know like going out in groups yeah there's no record that I'm aware of of children being taken and abducted when they're with another child yeah yeah these all these things these unwarranted fears so that's for me it's getting back to the original question we need to be intentional at the start we've had that intentionality but then that commitment to look at our own fears and anxieties and how we are as the parent being the block yeah and from a community activation point not just delivering a program because it doesn't matter no it's a long-term thing and it shouldn't cost money it shouldn't be loaded up with permits and application forms and things like that it shouldn't have to mean you have to do it all but jump through a whole bunch of hoops and make it happen because it won't more friction less action yes and a child who knows their community and has a connection with their community will make it happen yeah.

Lukas: And what I'm hearing there time and time again about implementing this and getting action and what you're doing you're just giving the facts you're not you're not creating a story you're not you're not you're not even extending on a story or a narrative you're like okay what is the facts around this if children don't play outside they're not learning the life skills you know having that education awareness in your environment as you're adventuring through with your friends that ties into that city you're in later in life when they can later hopefully travel around the world and that awareness needs to be there otherwise yes what a disservice we're doing we're not letting children experience life and then we push them into the real world and say that's life go for it yeah and they come from you can't cope with pressure anymore kids are resilient and kids can't cope with feedback you know all these things like wow we've created the conditions for those and behaviors to be prevalent you know it's like so yeah where's the ownership yeah.

Hyahno Moser: And what protection factor that is having that monumental impact and look all you have to do is look at the rates of mental health and suicide in teens and it's a more important than anything it's far more impactful than a pandemic for our teens that's right I mean there's some great stuff around teenage brains and how important peers are in terms of social development you know you know being cut off that contact social isolation and loneliness I get it I understand why we've got anxiety and you know school refusal is becoming such a huge thing you know parents who cannot get their kids to go to school yep kids who are choosing and refusing to not go to school because of the social anxiety it's attached with that space another barrier for me that I'm I'm noticing time and time again is we've got communities that don't welcome kids we've got a street where if a child is out in it there's the immediate question of why is that kid there yeah you know where are the parents someone is being neglected and I'm hearing stories even like if you're looking at it from an equity perspective we've been hearing stories of child safety and children having you know threats of being removed from their parents because their parents choose to let them go out in their community yeah these these are not okay circumstances but also it's specific communities where that's happening as well it's not the affluent areas where the kids are out it's the children in these certain demographics that are suffering the repercussions of this I've heard stories from first nations families in logan who say they have to play in hiding because they're concerned that their children will be someone will call child safety on and someone will take them away you know they have those stories rolling around the community and there's real examples that go along with that so it's not just hearsay.

Lukas: What's your thoughts on how we got to this stage of not honouring children an article I shared I'm not sure you saw it yet from the age about melbourne melbourne's currently in lockdown it was in lock down over 200 days last year and a lot of families were going out into the parks for play and building their own structures and building their own cubbies and now the council are going through and no that's not safe rip it out they're chopping it down you know the playground assessment people came out to the park and said no that cubby's not structurally sound so we've got to destroy it as a part of the community how did we get here really.

Hyahno Moser: I don't know yeah I mean again it points to that lack of intentionality I suppose you know I mean and I mean that intentionality if we had the intentionality to create those places where children play all the time and we value it and that's what that's where it gets down to that value of play and what kids get from those experiences then you know those those those the fact that it's become an article to me in the paper says to me that people think it's ridiculous and it's an outrage you know and that there's a so to me that says people do value play they they also value the fact that they should have choice over what they do in their communities and you know and their parks so the the fact that that article even exists to me says the community has spoken you know and I suppose how many people will read that article and I mean that's the journalists take on it yeah obviously the community has has plugged into those news newsrooms and said this is happening in our communities yeah and we're not happy about it that's great that's a good sign well there is strong value for play out space with councils you know they they they live on that fear of of litigation you know if we let that public space have that playground that cubby house there and someone knocks something over and hurts themselves they'll sue the council they don't know the statistics around actual law cases that happen against councils for those sorts of things I'd be interested to know and you know but I would like to think that most people accept the responsibility that if you know that the council didn't build that flat that cubby house that some kids have and that if they knock it over and falls on someone that the council won't be to blame for it yeah it's a tough one you know because I mean everyone's looking to point a finger somewhere and someone should be accountable so I mean when when is it okay for us to accept mistakes and and have accidents and and learn personal responsibility for me when I was at uni and we were looking at risk management in a degree I read this great article and I still remember the line and it says risk management will says to people yes you have the right to be safe but it's going to cost you your personal responsibility and that's that's a great framing of what play is it's about having that responsibility that ownership and we actually learn it through play so we need some play philosophy pushing through into council mindset I think I'm speaking speaking of journalism a play street you're involved with just got a bunch of publicity so talk to us about that like how it started and what the results were.

Hyahno Moser: So again with this collect back to the collective impact and the community development stuff we held a forum in a community we had lots of forums actually in the in the in the logan community across a fair few of the suburbs and we asked people to come to these neighborhood forums and let's have a chat about neighborhood play and at those forums we talked about the importance of play the importance of neighborhoods we asked that question about where did you play as an adult and can your kids do that and then we put forward a proposal of of support for six months to an adult a parent in three of the communities we could run with three of the communities and one of the mums who was at that forum said I would like to do this in my strength and so we went on the six-month journey to help her activate a street she did not know anyone in that community when we started and now it's this thriving play street on auto drive every day the kids are out playing every day without fail and they h

Hyahno Moser: They have taken over their road. They have not waited for any authority to come and support them to make that happen. They have just taken it because it has such huge value and they've learned to manage the risks alongside it. They have risks there - there's a blind corner right up the top of the street and they've got this cool hill that runs down. It's really playful. They go all the way to the top of this hill on their skateboards and their scooters and their bikes and they get up to the point where they can see around the bottom corner and they can look down the other end so they know there's no traffic coming and they roll down this hill. When we first started there no child could do it on a skateboard - they all can do it now. And there were some kids there who were on trainer wheels - none of them have training wheels anymore. They're all doing it on their bikes. They've all learned all these incredible skills and they've supported each other to do these things. I was watching one of the times I was there recently - a four-year-old girl being supported by a ten-year-old girl on her bike to get past the training wheels. It was just beautiful to watch everything that's unfolding in that street. I went there with the view that I really want to get kids more active - that was my mission. It's like kids are inside and staying on their devices. I was hoping for physical activity. I knew there'd be some social outcomes that go along with it but I had no idea how important and strong those outcomes would be for children in protecting their mental health.

Lukas: And they shared with you directly some of those things as well?

Hyahno Moser: Yes, and loneliness and isolation was a strong thing. One of the favorite questions at the end of the six months of myself being involved - one of the great questions I asked them was if someone wants to turn around and say to you no more, pack it up, go inside, no more playing on your street, you're not allowed to do it anymore. And you should see the responses from these kids. It was so offensive and so disempowering. You could see straight away the power being stripped away from these kids - a power that they had now. And that power being stripped away lasted about two seconds and they just went into a revolt. They're like "you can't tell us what to do on our street, it's our street, this is home." But I remember one of the children going on this huge rant about "I don't care if the police come, I don't care, we'll stand out here, we'll protest all together." And then he goes "it's okay for them, they got their cool jobs, they got their friends that they hang out with all day. We need our friends, we need our friends."

Lukas: There was something you shared with me a while back I don't want to ruin it but about having backup friends. What a great thing, hey?

Hyahno Moser: That then goes to that sanctuary, that community. If kids go to school and they got friends at school - great. What about for all those kids who have a tough day at school? Who do they go home to after they've had that tough day of school? You got your parents, sure, but for children a lot of confidence and competence comes about being a friend. When they go - if they go home from school and they've had a tough day at school and they feel like they've lost all their friends that day, which happens regularly in primary school and in high school - they can go home to a community that is waiting for them and knows them on a deeper level, on a more intimate level because they're actually in their houses and has an understanding of the relationships that they have with their families. It has all these incredible things and relationships on a more intimate level. They can go back to that sanctuary and they can talk about their day, they can talk about their problems. Well they don't even have to talk about it - they've got a friend who will support them to do whatever they want. That's that backup friend. I mean that in itself is such a huge protective factor for mental health. If you want good positive mental health, having other people to talk to is absolutely pivotal, especially for children in their developmental years. The neighborhood is that sanctuary. And not just having one friend - just having lots of friends. One of the kids said to us - and this girl's seven, she was able to articulate this at seven - and she said, and I mean you gotta read along between the lines of it, her exact words were "if someone's being angry with me I've got other people who I can play with." So that's what she wants - that says that play is so valuable to her. But the diversity of friends - so if that person even at that house there or that play that game over there even on the street isn't okay, I still have those guys over there who I can play with. So having these options - what great protective factors.

Lukas: And what were the standouts for the parents?

Hyahno Moser: For the parents - knowing that the children are more settled, happy, choosing to connect in real life. One of the things a parent said to me was sometimes before all this happened, before the neighborhood play networks, I used to have to go and check on them in their rooms and in different places because the house was so quiet. The house was so quiet because they would just sit on iPads and screens. For me that like the rise of the iPad in childhood is because kids don't have neighborhoods to play in. And this comment totally proves that. The kids now that they have these communities - they still have the iPads, they can go on and use them - they choose not to. They choose face-to-face with children. That's what's important to them. So for the parents the greatest benefits for the parents is knowing that they're creating and carving something out for their children that's so important for them and knowing that their kids are so happy and healthy and active and social and settled. They're sleeping better. Everything is aligning. I mean as a parent one of the greatest things to do is to go to bed at night knowing that you've done a great job being a parent that day. That's the benefit for those parents. They get to go to sleep knowing that they've carved something out really important for their kids.

Lukas: And this will soon be replicated again and again?

Hyahno Moser: I mean we're on this mission to make Logan the most playful city in the world. I think we're well on our way. We've got a Logan-wide play action plan and neighborhood play networks is just one part of it. We hope the whole gamut of networks starts to infiltrate a city. When you look at a population scale approach that's making these changes, suddenly other cities look at it and go "well maybe we could do that." Maybe we could adopt a citywide play plan. I mean because the benefits are not just for the children - it's for the whole community. Coming back to that act local, think global mindset. When it comes to thinking global in this bigger way and having these having different programs that complement each other, an exciting development happening in Logan is the childhood summit coming up.

Lukas: So how does that - the childhood summit coming up - give us a breakdown of what it is and why it's important.

Hyahno Moser: It's our time to celebrate. It's our time to shine a light on everything that's happening. Over 450 professionals - people who work with children in Logan - have done professional development around increasing play. We're working with over five schools at the moment, or over 11 schools actually, but five of them are implementing their own play action plans at a school. They're looking at the whole environment - how do we make our spaces more playful? How do we ensure our teachers understand and value play? How do we create the conditions where kids feel they can have ownership and drive and be self-directed and don't just walk around and wander aimlessly in breaks? How do they - and the impact that has on their education when we get them? I mean if we want to get adult-centric we can look at the great things it does for kids' education. Most children aren't really worried about that but they're making school the funnest place to be and they're seeing huge results. We're seeing kids stay at school. One school had - and I think you've talked to Steve Kanowski, Principal Steve Kanowski - he's seen massive reductions in behavior-related suspensions and that's becoming a common theme with schools who are following his suit in Logan and doing more of that. So we've got these great play action plans happening in different schools. We've got early childhood services, community services, even commercial operators doing more play-based stuff. The childhood summit is our chance to bring everybody together and those neighborhood play networks - to bring everybody together and celebrate. Because being connected to something bigger than our street, our school, our community - to know that it's having such a huge impact on everything and changing the narrative in our community - it's such a powerful thing. And the childhood summit is that opportunity for that to happen. And the thing I love a lot about the childhood summit is the children are put at the center of that and they are the experts. One of the great things we're doing there is we're giving kids the platform to be the keynote presenters. We're paying them to be there. They're being valued for their time and their expertise in what they can add value to this big play action plan that we're creating. And their voices are the foundation for the legacy of that summit which is a five-year plan for play to increase play across Logan and work on that mission to make Logan the most playful city in the world. So the children have told us what they want. The adult's job at the childhood summit is to come together, celebrate our success, and create new plans - collaborative plans that we all agree on - a way to move forward and make more play happen in Logan and achieve our goal.

Lukas: And you've got some amazing speakers coming. Can you share with us some of those?

Hyahno Moser: So we're going to celebrate, we are going to demonstrate some great practices, get some more info from those experts that then we can work in conjunction with that child's voice, combine them to make sure they're rigid and solid and it's not just done on a whim and they're backed, and then feeding them back into the community for the community to take hold of.

Hyahno Moser: That's right, that's right. I mean, one of the great things of a collective impact approach is it gives people who want to invest in real change for communities a channel to do it. That's the beauty of collective impact - you've got a whole community invested in this, you've got so many people who want to make change from the ground up. I mean that's power. And there's a lot of fuzzy feel good, you know, let's get everyone involved. There's actually - this is now at a stage now where there's actually evidence that the community is taking this on, having impact. And then the beautiful thing is other agencies, other people are starting to look at this going "oh this is actually working."

Lukas: Yes, yes. And they'll adopt it if it works, if they see the benefits. I mean it'll show up eventually. You know we're only at the beginning of this journey and that has to be recognized. This is a long-term plan, but we have to start, we have to start now and we should have started a long time ago.

Hyahno Moser: Yeah, and you know this long-term plan will end up showing up. There'll be better education results, they'll increase and they'll get better because they'll spend more time at their schools and love their schools. You'll see less incidences of crime I suppose, because you know, the value of their community and people being out in the community is safety. That's what the parents tell us - the parents tell us that their community has never felt more safe. And that's because they have connection with them, you know. And then there's also the fact that there'll be less negative health outcomes, you know, with kids not indoors, being more active and having those huge protective factors around their mental health. That's going to be a huge positive.

Lukas: Who do you want coming to the summit?

Hyahno Moser: Anybody who's a gatekeeper to children's play. And if you don't think you're a gatekeeper to children's play, maybe you have to think about this question: is there any decisions that you make about a community that would reduce a child's capacity to play? Or do you have the ability to make a decision that will increase a child's ability to play? So for me, politicians play a huge role, local governments play a huge role, but so does every single community member - every single community, grandparents, uncles, aunties, parents, kids, early childhood educators, school educators, teachers, coordinators, community centers. And there's so many places and spaces where kids play, and kids - one of the things that you remember I think about play is kids play where they are. So you know, people can all sign up and be part of shifting the narrative and re-starting a culture of play and a culture where kids are welcome in their community.

Lukas: Who are some of those speakers you've got coming along? Share, give a little taster.

Hyahno Moser: Okay, so one of the more fun ones that we've got is Joe Brumm, who is the creator of Bluey - you know, the ABC's number one television show. It's a children's show called Bluey, and for those people who don't know who Bluey is, it's a great cartoon for children but I think parents get a lot out of it. And that's why he's coming - he's coming to talk about playful parenting. And I would encourage anyone who hasn't seen any episodes to go and have a watch, so watch some of them. So he'll be there and he's talking about playful parenting.

We've also got Natalia Kucirkova, who did a Churchill Fellowship on looking across the globe at the best practice cities for play, and she will be coming to share her research but also run some workshops with children on what they would like to see their neighborhoods be as a playful place that is welcoming for children. So she's coming and she'll be there.

We've got the National Children's Commissioner, Anne Hollonds, who's you know, the national advocate for children, who will be part of this voice. We've got the CEO for Amnesty International, Sam Klintworth. She's going to be coming along. We've got Paul Tranter, who's just released a book called "Slow Cities" and he's been - I think he's written 11 books on this topic about how to make cities more welcoming for everybody, especially children. So he'll be coming to share his research.

We also have someone called Lukas Ritzen - he'll be there talking about all of his great wealth of information he's learned about his playful research too. Who else would be there? Dr. Gregory Trost is the professor of play and he'll be talking about how public spaces can become more playful.

We also have a couple of school principals around the area, so this is our chance to celebrate a lot of stories from this community. They'll be given the stage to share the success of what they've done, and that includes a couple of the school principals. One of them, Andrew Barnes, submitted his synopsis yesterday and it's called "Our Wonderful Mess." And I can't wait to hear that story because he talks about how this place-based approach has quickly become the most popular part of their school, but he's seeing such huge significant benefits for the kids that he's had the most challenges with as a principal. So he's got some great stories and it's front and center as well.

Lukas: Yes, yeah. So lots and lots of great reasons to come.

Hyahno Moser: Panel discussions, forums - we're taking one forum on child-friendly neighborhoods, taking sort of a paddock to plate approach to how do we - again, all those people involved in delivering a community where a child can walk outside their door and play - we'll be involved in those discussions from researchers to land developers to councillors and everybody else. And we'll have a number of children speakers as well.

Lukas: Yes, I've got an application going at the moment. I'll put the application for children of that Logan community in the show notes, so if you know any children of that community, please share it with them. We want to hear all voices.

Hyahno Moser: Definitely, definitely. I mean, you know, children will get - this is their chance to have their voice heard. They may not get a speaker role, but their voice will still be heard. It'll go into those play action planning notes that we're collecting for children, and so it's part of that consultation process with kids. And yeah, their voice will be contributed.

Lukas: Excellent, excellent. There'll be a pop-up playground that people will be able to register for as well. The Imagination Playground will be on site - loose parts pop-up play manned by the crew from The Outsiders.

Hyahno Moser: Yes, yes. I mean we've had an incredible amount of in-kind support for this event.

Lukas: Yeah, I've done the dollar figure. Do you want to hear the dollar figure on the incredible amount of in-kind support?

Hyahno Moser: Of course.

Lukas: $61,000 worth of in-kind support so far.

Hyahno Moser: Phenomenal. And that shows that it's got traction, that this matters to people. And I encourage anyone that wants to have an input on their community - if you're an early childhood teacher, teacher from a school, run any programs, you have a relationship with a child, or you have been a child before - this is for you. All right, so it's not a thing about making money. It's not a big conference where we're going to do gala dinners. This conference - and summit I should say - is about impact and handing that on to the community and just giving them what they deserve in the form of momentum.

We decided to adopt the Childhood Summit format because it was the platform created for us to stop, pause, and have a think about how are our kids doing? How are they doing, and especially in relation to their play? And it's also the opportunity for us to hear directly from kids about that - how are they doing? And then what can we then do as a community to rally around our kids?

Lukas: I love that. I love this - the Maasai cultural group from Africa still has such strong roots, such strong roots to their culture. And when they meet each other, they come together and they welcome - they don't say g'day, they don't say hi, they don't say how you're doing. They say "how are the children doing?" That's their welcome, that's their greeting. That's how they greet each other - "how are the children doing?" And that's because they're taking the temperature and the measurement of their whole community based on how the kids are doing. This is us at the Childhood Summit going "how are the kids doing?" And if they don't get the response "the kids are doing well," then there's something that we need to do about that. And I can tell you, those kids in that neighborhood play network, they're doing well. They're doing real well.

And I've got to say a huge thank you and respect to you for constantly asking that question and posing that question to so many people, including myself. And I invite the listeners - if you ask yourself that question and you don't get the answer you expect, let's take some action together. And you're supported in your journey as well - there's groups out there that can come alongside you, other community activation.

Where can people find out more information about the summit, about the work you do, Community Play?

Hyahno Moser: Well, the summit - you go to www.childhoodsummit.com.au and you'll find everything you need to know there. If you want to find out more about all the play stuff, I would go to the Australian Institute of Play website and get in contact. I'd love to hear from anybody about this.

Lukas: Excellent. On that note, all of the things we discussed will be in the show notes - the links to previous guests that have been on the podcast. And even we'll chuck in "Last Child in the Woods" for the people that haven't read that, because it's a really important, influential book.

Hyahno Moser: Yeah, can I please take time to say thank you to you, Lukas, and all the great work that you do in your community? You know, this is above and beyond. Having these conversations are really important. Having them there is in an archive where people can draw on them, and you know, it's a record in time. So congratulations on everything you've achieved with this podcast. It's such an incredible resource for people, and I for one love sharing them with all the community. And there's such a wealth of conversations on here now that if someone's asking me about an issue around play, I'm pretty sure there's a podcast on the Play It Forward series now that addresses those issues. So well done.

Lukas: That's incredible. Thank you so much. It's definitely a passion and it does me a great wealth of good just to check in with the journey and just have another vessel to support community where we can. So thanks so much for the nice words. What a great chat with a great human - a person that doesn't just talk the talk but walks the walk. Thank you so much for joining us again on another Play It Forward podcast.