Michelle Mitchell on Teen Parenting

Lukas: Where did you like to play as a child? I ask this question a lot because childhood memories shape us into the people we become. Welcome to Play It Forward, a Worthy podcast. I'm your host Lucas Ritzen. Thanks so much for joining me. I talk a lot about play. I'm a dad, I'm a husband, I'm an educator, and I'm a playground designer, so I want to gather some of my favorite people who are advocates of children and nature and create a space to have an honest conversation about getting more kids outside. The power of play is very often underestimated and I think we all need a little more play in our lives. Our next guest is an award-winning speaker, best-selling parenting author and has been labeled the teenage expert by the media for her compassionate and grounded advice for parents, tweens and teens. Today we are talking about the challenges our youth are facing, the role parents play in childhood and how to support and encourage young people to thrive. Just on that intro alone you see why this person is going to be an amazing guest for us today. A big warm Worthy welcome to Michelle Mitchell. Thanks for coming and joining us via Zoom today.

Michelle Mitchell: I am so excited to be here. We share a similar passion with prevention, don't we?

Lukas: Yes, this is going to be a great chat. I can't wait for it. Yeah, it was like oh wait, we got to press record. Let's get started. So let's get the formalities out of the way. The question we ask all of our guests where it all started and where did you play as a child?

Michelle Mitchell: Where did I play as a child? That's what you want to know?

Lukas: Yes, think about that.

Michelle Mitchell: Oh, I think I used to go to my school after hours and there was something about a school after hours that was super cool and it was almost a little bit haunting. It was a bit scary just in case the groundsman came around the corner and busted you, but I didn't live too far from my school so I would often go there after hours and play on the playground equipment and wander around and check out the high school area when I was a primary school kid. So that was my stomping ground. And siblings, children in the neighborhood factor?

Lukas: Yeah, my sister and I, so just two of us. And we didn't have a huge amount of kids in our neighborhood but we had elderly and I had kind of circuit that I would do where I would visit Annie on Monday and Mrs. Rose on Tuesday and I absolutely loved it. It really birthed a lot of compassion in me as well and I would take them flowers that I had picked from other people's gardens as I walked down there, but that was all part of it and they would have chocolates and scotch finger biscuits waiting for me. So that was pretty motivating for who I was and my ability to contribute started really young for me.

Lukas: Yeah, and you can see how that transcends into your work. What was that moment when you're from that to now and what you do? How's that contributed?

Michelle Mitchell: Huge. I think people was always a big part of my world, but I remember even being 12 and 13 and writing my first book and hiding it under my bed in fear that someone would find it and hold me accountable to publish it or something like that, so I would hide it. But in my heart I always knew that I would be doing what I did now and I felt like teaching would be a really short stint for me. I was a classroom teacher for four years and then I founded a charity. And for me I just love seeing kids thrive. That whole area of well-being really excited me. I wasn't as passionate about maths and English as some of my colleagues and I could really tell the difference. I was like one of these things is not like the other one. I don't care whether there's an E on the end of that word quite the same way as you do. And so I just at 24 just took this leap into building a charity and I worked one-on-one with girls. I ran small group programs in schools for kids at risk of sort of dropping out of education, did a lot of work with child safety all the way through to working with families of quite professional families whose girls have kind of got themselves into trouble along the way and I ended up with 12 staff and a psychology clinic and it was just such a beautiful season of my life.

Lukas: And you skimmed into it there and something I've been delving into a lot more of your content and looking at these fixes, if you will, of the experiences children are having now and going okay, what is the prevention of these things? And then it made me even consider a deeper question: is that have we got childhood wrong completely? From schooling and how we're teaching, how we're interacting, how we're putting such an emphasis on after-school activities and succeeding, and how do we end up getting childhood so wrong for the well-being of children right now?

Michelle Mitchell: Yeah, I feel like we're always preparing kids and I know we spoke about this off air, didn't we? But in upper primary we're preparing them to be teenagers, in high school we're preparing them for the real world and I don't think we're ever really enjoying the stage they're in right now in that moment. And play is a huge thing that's been lost in this process of jam-packing our kids' schedules with things that we think is going to benefit them and things that we feel obligated to provide so much of in fear that they're going to be left behind. But there's something about helping kids dig into their unique blueprint. I'm really passionate about this at the moment that each child is stamped with such uniqueness and our job as parents I think is to help fine-tune their ears to that inner voice that's going to be their guide as they go through life. Yeah, and that refuge of mastery but this friendship's not working but at least I have this thing that I'm good at or this thing that I enjoy. And if we're creating no margin for that discovery because we're constantly in the doing train and allowing no being train, where's the refuge for the child? That's where they're going to end up having those external actions for their internal well-being.

Lukas: That's obviously I'm not an expert in the field and it's just my very humble observations. Am I on the right track or am I not seeing something there?

Michelle Mitchell: Your humble observations are articulated brilliantly. If there's any message that I've got for this generation of girls, it's that success starts from the inside out. It's not about smashing ceilings and seeing you roar, it's about digging into who you are and listening to your gut and following your own path in life and being really true to that voice. Because I feel like if young people can master that internal world, the expression of that is going to be healthy and true and helpful for people around them as well.

Lukas: And if we flash forward and put it more of inner prevention than what I mentioned earlier, giving him the vitamins for physical health instead of putting a band-aid on the injury, where do we start with our young girls and young people to have that identity and strength in a world that seems like you've got a big system here and a very little, somewhat resilient yet delicate person? How does that work?

Michelle Mitchell: Okay, so much I could say there. Let me get through it. I think that's good. I was just oh, my mind was shooting off in so many directions right then. This generation of kids has very much been labeled having a life skills deficit and so Mark McCrindle has done a whole lot of research around this Alpha generation coming through and what our kids actually need and it's got some amazing insights in there. One of them is that there's 2.2 billion of them and they're the most marketed to generation that has ever existed. They're a consumer market in their own right and I feel like our kids are navigating such an information rich, advertised rich world and to be able to listen to their own voice amongst all that is huge. Even the amount of education that our kids get these days and the exposure and the diversity they get exposed to, for them to be able to be still enough to listen to that inner voice is really massive. Research is very, very clear that connection is the base of everything and in fact young people learn resilience much more through their relationship with us and their relationship with other people than any other way. So we can promote risk-taking and we can expose them to challenges, but the overarching influence is actually our ability to connect with them and model what resilience looks like when we go through the tough times. With all this talk about resilience I get really worried that we're putting such an unrealistic expectation on kids that we're expecting them to have their shoes on, their bags packed and their lunch ready when they're going through a really crappy time at school. And if we remember back to our own lives we had the cover of the doona over our head refusing to go because sometimes that's actually what resilience looks like. It looks like them digging into the depths of where they are right now and then finding the courage for the next best step forward. And so it's not just a progressive path that just is all rosy and it's actually completely normal for our kids to have times where they genuinely struggle. That's where they learn this stuff.

Lukas: Yeah, and something stands out there. It's kind of like I want you to know your feelings and being emotionally aware, but just make sure it's the convenient ones. Convenient emotions, please.

Michelle Mitchell: Yeah, and resilience has got so much to do with us being able to master that fight flight kind of response and that takes time. And our kids' prefrontal cortex is definitely not developed until what we know in their late twenties and so I feel like expectation sometimes for them to be able to move through challenges and bounce back is just a little bit preemptive of where they're going to be at in the long haul.

Lukas: Yeah, are we just kicking the can down the road as well? We're saying be resilient, get on with it, be resilient, get on with it, but then it's within those teen years from childhood from that early childhood all the way through and it's finally around those teenage years where we're seeing the spillover. It's no, I can't. I can't do that. I see that within play and from a physical development standpoint and emotional regulation and courageous type of play. It's kind of like no, don't do that, don't do that, I'm going to direct you in everything you do, and then it becomes teenagers and it's we're making informed decisions now.

Michelle Mitchell: Yeah, yeah, and they haven't had that foundation because we're really building the foundation for the teenage years in kindy. That's where it all starts and this platform of trust that they have with us is almost this basis of so much in their world because their attachment with us. I think our girls are particularly just over the amount of messages they get about who they should be and I think they feel flooded with it and it comes out in all sorts of ways with our girls. But I think as they're trying to navigate who they need to be in life, one of the big things is the amount of technology influence and the external influence that's in our homes these days and parents are struggling to navigate that I think.

Lukas: Yeah, and what are you seeing is the impact of that?

Michelle Mitchell: Yeah, I think girls comparing themselves to not even in our era it was Elle MacPherson, she was the body, and we had pictures of Elle MacPherson on our walls and we had her in our diary but she was a real life person, Lucas. Now our girls are comparing themselves to just avatars and not even real people.

Michelle Mitchell: Real life people and that's just such an unrealistic benchmark for anyone they're not even admiring something about someone who's a real breathing human being with a personality and a soul that they can follow their life story and that ties into what we consider as well-being as well and what's that look like because we've got our representation as an adult what well-being looks like and if you ask a parent you know i want them to be confident independent honest but then the actual message when you ask your child what does your parent want you to be smart successful so there's a what is that definition it's often about those external factors of how well they're getting along with their peers or how they're going academically or whether they're doing their best effort at school but the reality is this is such a personal expression and i always look for those expressions of health which i think primarily need to be expressed in that sense of joy as they engage with the world and if the joy of life is just sucked out of them because they're on technology 24 7 comparing themselves to someone who's not even real or their world is so jam-packed with expectations they can't find their own soul i think we're missing the mark with kids.

Lukas: And my observation is with the impact of screen time it's kind of like they're losing the capability to have self-fulfillment because if you've got this instant gratification by screening goodbye technology you're not developing that strength and the flex in your muscle to be able to go hey i'm the master of making myself happy that's right so then take the screen away what have i got.

Michelle Mitchell: And so joy and also that sense of autonomy and ownership over what's going on in life they're two things i really look for i was in a grade six classroom last week and we were talking about self-care and the ability when friendship dramas are really heightened the ability to ask yourself what do i need right now and how can i look after myself instead of looking to everyone else to do that at the end of a hard day being able to say to myself okay what do i need right now and we really talked about all the strategies available to them but so many kids are just telling me they're going straight to technology as a way to regulate their emotions and that does concern me because there's some things that are great for our brains all the time and there's some things that are not great for our brains all the time and these kids were recognizing that although it gave them a temporary relief it wasn't fixing solving or really helping them look after their whole being so kids are very aware that it's an easy go-to but it's not necessarily giving them the results they need.

Lukas: I like that word you just use there it's the whole being not just well-being because well-being could be considered universal it's okay what's the universal look like okay you're doing these things tick tick tick but whole being kind of like that internal out instead of outward in is that the intention of that word.

Michelle Mitchell: And even our definition around resilience right i'm just looking at some research here actually from the longitudinal study of australian children but the following statements were statements they asked young people to say yes or no to am i able to adapt to change can i deal with whatever comes can i see the humorous side of things am i coping with stress in a way that strengthens me and these are all excellent skills that we want our kids to have but i don't want it to be just another tick box that our kids have to get through i have to show resilience and i know how to get 10 out of 10 at that exam but i actually am not feeling fulfilled and happy as a whole person inside so how do we support children to strengthen the muscle or even from a play therapy standpoint it's turning on the switch how do you do that.

Lukas: I think it's got to come down to i guess one thing ourselves is just creating enough routines and rituals in our schedule that our kids have time to breathe number one and time to tap into what's going on with them but also time to make some of those real life decisions that give them the ability to express what's going on in here i think one of the most powerful things we can do with our kids is give them decision making friday where it's their job to make the decisions for the house all day they determine the schedule the food who when where what and give them some ownership over life and i feel if we can connect what's going on with kids hearts and give them an expression of that in the real world somehow instead of imposing it all on them it's going to be so much better for their development even if it's slower that's the thing we all want our kids to get ahead but sometimes it's slow and steady that actually wins the race.

Lukas: And it's incremental steps of accomplishment it's yes you can my daughter is seven she boiled the kettle and made herself a cup of tea last night and she was just so pumped about it that she was completely she did the whole thing and she just wandered off did it i was watching but she really has this big freedom cup that needs to be filled all the time and it's those decisions i'll try to keep empowering that excites me that you've got a little female right there who wants ownership of a life she doesn't want to be labeled fragile or weak.

Michelle Mitchell: So many of the messages that our girls get that they you know they are going to be liked more if they are not too bossy too strong but being able to write there she needs that freedom and empower that in everyday expressions is pretty powerful.

Lukas: And i think that's a conflict i observe in her is we've raised her to be i joke about it saying the goal is to raise a strong independent woman i can't turn i can't select the topics for my convenience so if she said she doesn't want to do something and she doesn't want to do it i equally have to respect that as much as something that is more convenient and i think it ties in beautifully with what you were saying about and breaking down a bit the ritual versus routine for the people listening if you frame up routine is something based on the outcome and you need to do it for the sake of the outcome and a ritual is full of deeper meaning and you're doing it for the experience in the moment so maybe something to take away is assess your day with your children and look at the percentage of how much routine you have and how much ritual you have.

Michelle Mitchell: Love it love it i mean if we could do anything powerful for our kids it would be spending 15 20 minutes a day with them just hanging and being with them in their world in their space loving what they're loving at that time wouldn't that be powerful for kids and wouldn't they remember that in 10 20 years time that someone actually really dug into and was connected to and got passionate about the thing that they really were into at that time my dad did so well at this lukas he just did i was maybe nine or ten i started my first business it was a lamington run i don't know who negotiated to buy the wholesale lamingtons from the bakery but somehow we got fifty dozen lamingtons every week my dad drove that car with all the lamingtons in the back air conditioning on so they didn't melt in the heat of summer and i just went door to door selling the lamingtons on friday afternoon until they were all gone and he had such a way of empowering what i was into at the time and it was everything from knitting jumpers to selling lamingtons but he was right by my side it was never you can't do that because you're a girl it was never you better settle down it was how much money did you make this week michelle you know it was fantastic celebration he was really good at drawing that out of me and inside all of our kids there is such uniqueness whether it's just an interest or whatever it is a skill but whatever it is if we honor that and teach our kids to honor that i feel that overrides all the tick boxes we've got going about resilience at the moment.

Lukas: Absolutely and simple breakdown of the maslow's if we support their basic needs and get up and then get them to the self-fulfillment so they're the masters of what they need what i observe with many families and families i work with through child care and building playgrounds because we do parent information nights is that you do have this the protection effect to a certain extent they're too fragile they're too delicate i don't and the protection and that is just i'm seeing that as one of the biggest causes of children's anxiety they're quite nervous around because this perception that's getting put down on them that they're not capable is that something you observe in your line of work as well.

Michelle Mitchell: Definitely with our girls and i hate seeing a teenage girl feel she has to buck hard to shake that label that i'm supposed to be weak and fragile i hate that because that's what really gets them into trouble when they feel they have to push hard against something that's been restraining them and they don't feel free to be themselves i say to parents that we have nervous bystander energy and i've had this as a mum you know it's when you're watching your child kick the winning goal in a soccer match you have this knot in your stomach hoping they're going to get that thing over the line because they know the consequence you know the consequences but as they go through life and they're applying for their first jobs or they're going for big exams or they're trying to change their friendship group we have nervous bystander energy and it's where we channel that energy that matters i don't think we should have the expectation that we need to shut that down because that's part of our connection and that innate feeling of protecting them it's so important but i have had to learn to channel that into productive places that are helpful for them and i often remember times where i've asked my boys what can i do to help you and i remember my grade 12 boy said to me once mum just don't talk quite so much i don't want to talk about anything stressful after nine o'clock at night and you know take your energy basically somewhere else and if you could help me make my lunch that'd be fantastic and i think sometimes our energy our nervousness comes on top of their maybe anxiety on top of anxiety it's kind of contagious so we need to be mindful of that there is that where are they going to help them regulate their emotion or we're going to add our emotion to the table with it.

Lukas: And is that a technique you would use to find that balance between encouragement and it's a technique i use with my children as well it's yeah you do have a problem you know how how are you gonna solve it i know you're so smart and good at solving problems so what's your idea and that's so i try to put it back on them but what point does that at what point do you step in because i'm constantly struggling with that one i want to help so much because and it's that protection thing i want you to be empowered but then if i don't step in at some stage to try to help with the problems they can't solve i'm worried about the ongoing impact of that and saying well you i can't rely on you.

Michelle Mitchell: Two things here. Let's go this way and then this way. Yeah, I think if the risk is mild to moderate then let them go for it and then be prepared to unpack it afterwards. And even if it has meant a few skinned knees or broken hearts occasionally, I've actually really glad that I've let my kids go into some environments that had an element of risk because they need a full range of experiences to build strong resilience. They actually do. And so while the stakes are not so high - so while they don't have their own money and keys to a car and we to a certain degree pick them up and scoop them up at the end of the day - it's a great time for them to experience a bit of risk.

Michelle Mitchell: I think the line comes with safety and because I have worked maybe on that pointy end of things in a bit of my career, I really see the need for in-charge energy and for parents to recognize those times where it's actually not their child's decision and be able to walk into that space with the in-charge energy that says "and the only answer I'm going to accept right now is yes mum." And there is times where I've said to my kids "I need that dishwasher unpacked. I need it unpacked now and the only answer I want is yes mum." So it's non-negotiation and it's "no, I don't need your opinion on everything." And I think as parents we need to be able to define when our kids need in-charge energy, when they need our coaching and mentoring energy where we're negotiating things, and when they need just our encouragement to say "yeah go for it." And there's three different energies and spaces that we bring to parenting depending on what they need.

Michelle Mitchell: I had a webinar with Nathan Wallace last week - neuroscientist - but we talked about calming, connecting, and then coaching our kids. And the work is really in calming and connecting and that's the space that sometimes takes the time, the skill. We need to be able to validate their emotion really well. We need to be able to step into their shoes. We need to be able to see things through their window as Karen Young says. That ability right there is far harder to master than to coach them or to help them problem solve. We know how to do that. But it's the other stuff that sometimes is a bit hard work. And the more drained we feel as parents, the more it's harder to invest time and energy into that stuff because we want to just - what we're talking about - get to the next thing, get to the next outcome, when the real work, the real pain actually happens in that calming, connecting, regulating so we can think clearer about life.

Lukas: And that really sounds like you've answered my question here - what does a strong relationship between a parent and a child look like? You're the backbone at the same time as the hugging arms.

Michelle Mitchell: Yeah, and it's that ability to know where. And that can be really hard as they start to shift seasons and shift gears. I feel like as parents walk their kids through these stages of development, sometimes just after their tween years it's like they've climbed the pinnacle of that mountain and they're able to really enjoy the view for a minute and it's beautiful and it's amazing and they're celebrating how far their kids have come. But the next leg of the journey starts right down at ground zero again and it's a hard climb again until they get to that moment where they're in those young adult years where you're standing next to them and you actually got this beautiful adult relationship where you can really treasure that season that has come to a close as well. It's loving freedom - if you do have this innate reflex to love and protect, but it's the love and let go where you're going to teach them the skills.

Lukas: Something I talk a lot about in the early childhood sector is how childhood is under threat - the amount of screen time children get, the lack of freedom. In one generation, in our generation, we had a kilometer of free play and now it's down to line of sight - it's between 40 and 70 meters. But then delving into your work, the teen years and those years of discoveries and failures and uncertainty within yourself and that search for identity - that seems really equally under threat as younger childhood as well.

Michelle Mitchell: It absolutely does. And I think these days because we are very well educated but we're talking about really intense things - you know, pornography exposure and pedophiles and we've got so much on our mind as parents that we're making sure we're keeping our kids safe and we have this heightened awareness of their safety, which is an excellent thing - that's not my point. But growing up is meant to be fun, and it's meant to sort of carry a lightness about it. And I feel like as parents, even with these conversations we're having with kids around puberty and staying safe online, it's always got this undertone that's very intense. And we can never really enjoy the moment of where our kids are at in life if we're coming from it from such an adult perspective. It's almost sucking the life out of the everyday joy that our kids should be experiencing. Now that doesn't mean we don't have that in-charge energy that sets boundaries and knows where the healthy line is for our kids, but gosh, we've got to keep a smile on our face and we've got to keep it light.

Lukas: Do you have any suggestions and technique if the parents out there - and they can do some reflection - go "yeah, I'm pretty intense actually." I call it the mortgage frown, Lukas. It's the mortgage rate, it's just full-on isn't it? Yes, we're going to deal with these problems as teens and even dialogue around that - children with some challenging behaviors younger - and then this default, it really is a comment that just makes me go "oh," it's "well you just wait till they're a teenager." That's such a negative - you're setting yourself up there for some proper distance between you, us and them mentality. So what's some techniques we can get over the mortgage phase and be more of that teenage zone and be debt free?

Michelle Mitchell: I always find that changing environments really helps me because my mind gets stuck in this adult loop as I call it. And so being really deliberate and intentional about changing environments - going for a walk with the dog with your child if you're wanting to spend some quality time with them - because sometimes in our own loop of environment our mind is just going in the background and it's not really shifting into their sphere. The other thing that used to really work for me when they were younger is letting them choose the activity because it forced me to get the nerf gun out or to flick the lights off and run around and play hide and seek in the dark. It put me into the shoes of a child again. And I think as adults we are not very good at playing unless we're forced to. And if you let them choose it can really help.

Michelle Mitchell: Be really aware of those transitions too - of when a child bidding for your attention and you're needing to transition into giving them your full attention - how you do that is really important. So the quickest way for our kids to get our attention is often to pick a fight or act out. And we've got to recognize that that's often times where they're bidding for our attention where they see our mortgage frown or they see us multitasking and they know they can't quite get all of our heart and so they act up. The number one thing that kids tell me is they don't know how to get their parents' attention or their parents don't listen. And we fall into this trap of multitasking. But realizing when we have that mental note - my kid's hanging around a little bit longer than usual or they're acting out a little bit - we've got to see that as a bid for connection and we've got to set up the opportunity for us to transition out of our world and into their world.

Lukas: And that comes with using that framework - calm, connect, and then coaching. Calm, connect is in the being realm and that coaching is in the doing realm. And it's hard to switch. My wife calls it my work face. I can come in and "how's your day?" "Oh it's been hard." "Well what you just need to do is this, this, this." "I don't need you to fix anything." And we're constantly trying to fix our children.

Michelle Mitchell: I know some families that play a game of cards together as a bit of a transition period so it just kind of gets everyone out of work mode into home mode. Food is an excellent breaker of routine as well. When we all sit down and have a meal together, I think that's something we tend to lose in our crazy schedules these days - and breakfast together and even that cup of milo together or hot chocolate. That can actually be that moment where we're going "we're deliberately moving our headspace."

Lukas: If a parent has just one habit to change to impact their relationship - because that's what it comes down to, it doesn't come down to trying to create a childhood experience or a teen or tween experience, it comes down to "okay, how do we foster a relationship?" by the sounds of it. So what's the major go-to adjustment parents can make to strengthen those relationships?

Michelle Mitchell: I think when relationships are tense or disconnected it's normally because two people are not understanding or appreciating or valuing each other. And if we can just genuinely accept where our kids are at - there are some things that are only on the other side of the doorway of acceptance. So if you have a teenage girl who is just full-on and acting out, you will always look back to her childhood unless you've walked through the doorway of acceptance for what's going on right now. And no matter if it's a toddler who's having a tantrum or a tween who's really concerned about their body, being really present with our kids often is embracing and accepting where they're at right now without us seeing it as wrong or bad or needing to be fixed. And they can tell, because you don't want to spend time with someone you don't accept. And if we can't be grateful for who our kids truly are, how are they going to be grateful for themselves?

Michelle Mitchell: For me, my observation is that there seems to be a bigger and bigger void between where children are at and where we expect them to be. That has the impact of showing the child that they're not where they're meant to be. So it's instantly negative because "you should be here" and - what was it you said earlier - about we're constantly wanting to have that progress, prepare them and prepare them. I feel like kids, even they get into high school and they just feel like the biggest failures because they can't organize their books and they're not doing well in some of their assignments and they can't get a grasp on what this whole high school thing is. But what the sad thing is about that is it's their only expression or way to say "I'm coping really well, I'm a great human." And some kids just don't have a lot of other avenues where adults appreciate what they're bringing to the table. I hate seeing kids get lost in the system like that because they're often kids who are incredibly intelligent in other ways other than academics.

Lukas: I'm doing working through that with as my daughter being seven. She's very artistic and wants to - she told a teacher last week "I don't need to be good at reading and writing because I can talk through my art." And I was like "wow, you're a proper artist." But that system is there, it's an institution you have to go through that. And how do you ma-

Michelle Mitchell: I want to keep her spark alive. I want to keep all children's spark alive. That's why creating play environments for all children is my passion and I'm going to be doing it forever because I can meet at-risk children, I can meet all across the board, but how do we support the child to maintain their uniqueness, maintain their mastery into that system? What I think our kids really lack is enough role models around their life because let's face it, building a tribe around our kids is the best way to be protective of their resilience as well. But enough role models around their life that see that potential, that see drawing as an expression of their that can champion that. Now there's going to be some people who either don't like you in life or don't appreciate that unique blueprint, but if we can - that's why teachers are so powerful. Teachers who really see the unique blueprint and it won't be every teacher, but environments for our kids where they can really have those older than them transition them into this adult journey in a way that says hey you are okay just the way you are and in fact I actually honor and I admire who you are. The biggest challenge for kids I think is finding where who they are connects with the real world and adds value to the world because that's often where they get paid, that's where their living comes from is when who they are connects with a need in the world. And so this balance of being able to give kids role models to usher them up but a sense of giving to the world around them is a really beautiful combination to help them find their place in the world.

Lukas: Yeah, and is there a - is it a lack of identity around self the main cause of a lot of this turmoil for tweens and teens?

Michelle Mitchell: Oh look I'm writing about this at the moment and I can't tell you Lukas how passionate I am about this because I think genetically our kids have a flow and the more we can help them go with that flow and not against that flow, the more very clear messages we're sending to them that they have something really valuable to the world inside of them and it's inside of them not on a tick box or a chart box. And that just excites me so much that unique blueprint. It's often got a lot to do with their genetic drives as well so it's not something that we can get in and fix and change and manipulate. We're giving them opportunities and we're giving them experiences they need to really feel like that part of them is being fulfilled.

Lukas: Yeah I think a point to make is that we're not telling parents to keep everything fluffy and keep everything perfect because that's going to be just as detrimental.

Michelle Mitchell: Absolutely. I've got an arty kid too Lukas and he's 20 with a film business but watching his journey he just doesn't fit into a lot of the boxes. I've got an eldest who went from high school to uni, he's just finished studying engineering - it's a very clear path. And then you have some other kids who don't quite fit in the box for whatever reason and their path is a lot bumpier and windier and a little bit rocky. And that nervous bystander energy we get and we go how are you going to provide for family and how is this going to work and you can see our adult mortgage grounds coming into place when we really need to be able to go what's the next best step and help them unpack. And I often say to Maddy like what's the next best step buddy and it's inside of them. What's the next best step actually roars pretty loudly if we can quiet into everything else.

Lukas: Yeah and how else - that's great technique to use - is that something that offsets the nervous bystander or do you have other techniques to offset your nervous bystander reflex? I love that phrase by the way.

Michelle Mitchell: The important thing is is knowing where it's channeling you. If it's channeling you to tap on their door at nine o'clock at night and have a deep conversation, if you're more needy than they are in areas, it's self-awareness I think with that nervous bystander energy. And I find looking after myself and saying what can I control actually makes me channel that energy back inwards which makes me a stronger person for them at the end of the day because we can project that instead of taking responsibility for that. So I think with that one it's so much about awareness and where it's manifesting and when it triggers our kids into frustration with us or anger, it's normally because our nervous bystander energy is getting into their space of what they should be taking responsibility for and we're getting too close to what they really need to and they're pushing us away especially as teenagers to get out.

Lukas: Yeah it's - yeah I really love that. No it sums it up so well that nervous bystander energy because it can push and pull.

Michelle Mitchell: Okay and it's not wrong. I hate this helicopter parent thing like I just - can I just - yeah I'm correct but I'll tell you what we damn love our kids 100% and we're doing the best with what we've got. And sometimes our own fears or experiences as a child especially around friendships - I find this - parents who've had really bad friendships in primary school they're often very protective of their kids because they know the impact it's had on them and they know how detrimental social relationships are with regards to how kids feel about themselves. And so when I feel like a parent is maybe nervous bystander energy slash helicopter parenting getting in kids' worlds, it's often about pausing, breathing, being self-aware in that moment and then putting the ownership back to our child and realizing it's their life, it's their unique journey and I'm going to help facilitate that and trusting - this word trusting instead of fear and control - trusting that inside of our kids is the next best step. They often don't have the next best step for five or ten years' time but right in that moment they often can put the next foot forward in a really constructive way and that will lead to the next and the next and the next. And why it's the next best step for them is because it's a step that they need to take even if it means more learning and it's the step that they owned because we can't impose self-regulation on kids and expect it to work for them. What it is about self-regulation that works is because we've chosen it, not because someone's told us how to care for ourselves in that moment. It's our will and our choice activating that's so powerful.

Lukas: Yeah and as you started to speak my notes were awareness and then wisdom - like being self-aware and then you can put the wisdom out there but you can't just force knowledge into someone. And you've got the wisdom because you've gone through the experience for yourself and you've cultivated that wisdom.

Michelle Mitchell: We do skip the wisdom train if we're reacting instead of responding and that's where we wait in the wings with all their wisdom on their backpack don't we and we wait in the wings for these precious priceless moments where we're really connected and our kids' hearts are open and they can hear our voice almost in unison with their own voice and it enables that next best step to be just reinforced.

Lukas: Yep yeah one thing I teach with educators and parents around even just playing and the language we use and getting over the react respond is just take the pause and don't give them the information they need to make an informed decision for themselves. Yeah so they're climbing a tree, they know they can fall, they know they need to be aware and cautious but the information that could cause an injury would be if there's a branch and those things we don't see and I'm talking things in a very physical realm but we're around risk but it transcends. One of the riskiest things a girl could do is go up and try to join in that other social circle that she's not used to. So is it a matter of giving them the information or is it a matter of from a social standpoint is it a matter of giving the information for their learning the hazards they might not see or is it just going all right it might be some harsh learnings here?

Michelle Mitchell: Now my field is with tweens and teens I guess so yes it puts a really different filter on that. You prepare teenagers for risky environments. You know if you know they're going to a party where there's potential risks you go through all of those things they have - you know it's our job to give them drug and alcohol education and talk through consent and all that stuff. But we've got to realize when they're in really high pressure social environments that their peers' opinion of them in that moment often counts far more than our education and that information just goes out the window. So they're so highly influenced by peers at that stage and you know an example of this is talking to a boy who's in emergency because he's flipped off a fence in front of his peers. Now in the moment that seemed like a really cool thing to do but later retrospectively he can actually say oh that was a bit dumb wasn't it. Now it's not that he didn't know he couldn't hurt himself it's just there was factors that overrode that at the time. And so I guess when we're talking about - we come back to this - is it a safety thing? Is the environment too unsafe to trust? And I used to as a youth worker say you never trust a teenager. Now I don't know if I'd say it like that these days but as this raw youth worker I was like because they get into environments where there's other factors that come into play that they actually don't have the ability to manage at that stage in their development. And so what we're trusting is that they can do their homework and maybe turn up to their part-time job on time but we're not trusting them with life-changing decisions. You know I've said even moms have told me you know I trusted her to sleep in the same room as a boyfriend and not have sex because we talked about all that and we've done all the education and I didn't think she was going to go to that party and do that because I trusted her. And I'm like well we can misplace that trust into areas that they're developmentally not ready to handle so easily. So I feel like that is a big line with it - it's are they developmentally ready to handle that? What's the risk? If it's mild to moderate oh look we all need a few stories as we grow up but if it's you know moderate to high we might need that in charge energy that comes in and says hey I'm going to just stand up and be the big person here because we want to get you through to the other place of this safely.

Lukas: Yeah and that's quite the tricky avenue as a parent. Do you be the one that is - reflecting on my wife's growing up and I'm one of six boys, she's one of two girls, very different experience - but you've got the type of parents that are like all right go to the party you're going to do your thing or then you've got the other parent that is like you're not going and then the rebellion that comes with that, the push away, the dividing of the relationship. So how do we find that middle road between not do what you want or?

Michelle Mitchell: And some parents have a higher tolerance for risk than others. Yeah I guess in my work I've really seen that diversity even with technology. Some parents just don't have quite the fear around that and they have much looser boundaries around that. So this has got to be a personal journey but you've got to know your why. Parents digging into the why and knowing your values as a family can really help. I think we can be too rigid with kids. I have seen a lot of parents not embrace teenage things - not high risk teenage things - because they feel like you know they're being a bad example to their kids even like an example of that.

Michelle Mitchell: It is music you know being able to enjoy some teenage things and realize they're not going to stick or last forever but what you're doing is creating shared memories there's value in that keep a big picture i think sometimes we zoom in when we really need to be zooming out not getting caught up in the detail of the moment well this isn't happening now going well in the scheme of things and it's that beautiful thing you said before Lucas it's whole being their whole being yeah this one little area we can zoom in on this one area that they're not coping very well with instead of zooming out and appreciating the bigger picture that's around them.

Lukas: If you could you've seen the current experience of teens that's happening now from social media to social challenges alcohol drugs the whole bit and all the challenges they face you can create the utopic experience for children for their well-being resilience what would those ingredients look like?

Michelle Mitchell: Well the utopic experience for children it would be to change up our education system a lot yeah yeah to make that more holistic because this takes up what six eight hours of their day i think that would be a massive thing yeah safe place for kids 100 percent and that's what that this has really made me reflect on this conversation and your work in general really made me look at well if we are supporting this why are we subjecting them to environments that completely go against it.

Lukas: I wonder if what you're trying to get at if i could change anything it wouldn't actually be to change the kids it would be to change the systems and the stress of the adults that are taking care of them i don't think the problems with our kids at all.

Michelle Mitchell: Exactly it's actually looking at ourselves and the systems that we're a part of and saying to ourselves how how can we just do this a little bit better or a little bit differently kind of get off the treadmill of the norm and just go okay does this child even running on the treadmill maybe not yeah it's telling a kid with ADHD that they've got to run around the oval a few times because it's going to help them and the kids it doesn't help me it just really annoys me and embarrasses me yeah it's that type of thing isn't it yeah 100.

Lukas: And i can relate because that's exactly my experience at school when i got diagnosed with ADD you said yeah go run first i was thanks for singling me out it's yeah and that that's not actually really helpful right now but this all takes time so i guess we acknowledge that there's so much happening change-wise in so many areas and we're advocating for better things but it all takes time so it's the nitty-gritty daily things we're doing in our home to to honor who our kids are and to call them into that purpose and to help them see where it connects and fits with the world and sometimes that's as simple as little conversations it's as simple as giving them opportunities at the right moments in their lives it's as simple as listening to them you know and and really leaning into what their next best step of in life is yeah.

Michelle Mitchell: What are those things because if you've got an agenda your children smell it a shark smells blood in the water and they get their eyes literally do the roll back thing as well and just be yeah good one my mom always used to make afternoon tea when she wanted to talk to me about something it was just i knew afternoon tea was that kind of moment where we it was just these trigger things i think we've got to be really respectful of our kids and make our intentions clear as well you know sometimes they're avoiding us because they're just afraid of maybe boys are afraid of mums getting into that space too much or not being heard or understood or using too many words and then getting flooded emotionally so it's us being very aware of where they're at and let's face it a lot of these things are biological drivers they're developmentally normal we're expecting kids to behave in a way that's adult when they are what children tweens teens and they're in very different stages of development yeah.

Lukas: And we've spoken a lot about so many such a broad range of the experience today if your parents listen to this or educator and they're thinking okay well how do i create more well-being for the children within our relationships and that bit more secure attachment if you will how do what does that look okay what's some things that we've covered that are really valuable?

Michelle Mitchell: I guess it's ownership of ourselves first recognizing when we that nervous bystander energy is putting us into the space of our kids yeah the second thing is just time with kids not preparing them for anything but appreciating where they're at and that has to help them foster a value and appreciation for themselves as a unique human being and i think one of the things we also covered is this this ability to give kids ownership and choice and power in their real world at that time and how important that is for our kids to to experience what that feels to experience what it's to make a decision for myself you know to to know what it's to be the boss of the family for a day you know to have those experiences have got to be got to be really helpful in their in their journey of things i think purpose and responsibility just are huge in kids lives and to be able to foster that and help that come from inside of their heart as at a young age can only really help them find that really clear direction and where they as a person fit in the world yeah.

Lukas: That's our big notes at the top of my pages here decision making friday yeah there was recently a movie that came out and it was yesterday so everything that should the children decide the parents have to say yes maybe a more tame backed version that is decision making friday definitely.

Michelle Mitchell: Do you know 27 out of 40 kids girls and 25 boys feel they are resilient so as much as we kind of look on and we see them flounder and we get really concerned about it and they've been called a generation with a life skills deficit with so much information yet such a deficit in just real life application of things in amongst all that our kids on the whole you know over half of our kids 27 you know it they feel they've got a handle on this thing i think we need to believe in them they don't know any different no they're not comparing themselves to you know comfortable they're comfortable with their journey and we talked about technology is an extension of who they are as a human being so they don't see it the way we see it it's a very very different generation with regards to you know where they see the deficits and what they think they need going forward they're not fractured they're not broken no.

Lukas: Do we need to just come from a place they're going to be fine well they it needs to be managed yeah absolutely i'm not saying no oh there you go there's a case the car credit card off you go so it's just it's this balance isn't it you talked about in charge energy and you know this this coaching and this empowering yeah and knowing when to bring both in place and i think both is valid and i think we need to kind of walk the journey of our kids looking to us and knowing that we've we've got it yeah you know that we we really are leaders of this this ship and that we are you know their parent that's strong and capable and no matter what you throw at me i'm gonna be able to handle it but in the same time giving enough room not too loose not too tight yeah absolutely don't be an extremist.

Lukas: If you could sum up a message then an important message that you want parents to know yeah what what's that?

Michelle Mitchell: Okay keep celebrating the right things when it comes to kids realize that there's a lot of things we celebrate that they actually didn't achieve do or invest into it all how pretty their dress is you know make sure we're celebrating the things that they have put effort into and care about i think think that another message that i feel is really important when it comes to resilience is that boundaries still matter is that our in-charge energy and that word no is actually still really valid because if if the adults in life are constantly moving to accommodate kids then they never have to butt up against anything that's gonna stay stable and what happens when kids have to butt up against a no that's not going to move is they have to adapt and change which is actually a really healthy thing for them to learn and i'm sad to see 20 year olds get into the workplace and have fights with their bosses because it's the first time they've really experienced something that is not going to shift for them and they're having to shift and move and change and i think this the next thing is just keep bringing the calm into your life into the life of your kids because it's from that place of calm and connection that we really have the opportunity to to coach them forward yeah.

Lukas: That's beautiful and functional and practical and that pretty much sums you up in your mission so beautiful intention it's practical and then it's execution as well but thank you so much i think we've had a great conversation today about these bigger view of things and trying to understand that and i'd love to have you back on to talk about more specific things that parents can do we've had such a general great general conversation that we went everywhere we've just gone around the world and back with just just some i hope parents find it just encouraging more than anything yeah absolutely.

Michelle Mitchell: There's no kind of right and wrong way of all this i've seen some amazingly strict parents have incredible relationships with their kids and then i've seen some parents that would be termed quite lenient and their kids have been amazing as well and i think it all comes down to this ability to connect to transfer your why and to just do your damn best every single day to take responsibility for ourselves and nurture our kids in a way that they can take responsibility for themselves yeah.

Lukas: It sums up it's awareness isn't it it's awareness of yourself and who you are and it's awareness of that child the strict parents were well we're gonna need some strict guidelines for this child to thrive and equally for the child that needs more a bit more lenience oh sometimes i've seen strict families and i've said to myself how do they get away with that you know no technology till you're actually 13 you know and they pull it off and you know why they pull it off because they're so invested and they're spending so much time connecting it's almost it's an anchoring for the extremities of some of those rules and it works because it really if kids are feeling safe if they're feeling connected i think we can be too tight sometimes because our kids need that broad range of experiences but i do i'm amazed at how much parents can pull off when they're well well connected with their kids yeah yeah.

Lukas: Well thank you so much for not only the value you've offered our listeners for this conversation but also how much you've contributed to me as a father and supporting my kids as well and i look forward to chatting again around more those specifics one i want to delve into how do we support our wider community and other families as well yeah so you no we don't feel alone those role models yeah absolutely yeah well thank you so much it's absolute honour and pleasure to have chat to you today.

Michelle Mitchell: Thanks Lucas you're amazing your work's brilliant and you can hear your passion for it in every word that you say which is exciting thank you so much.