Natalia Krysiak on Cities for Play

Lukas: Where did you like to play as a child? I ask this question a lot because childhood memories shape us into the people we become. Welcome to Play It Forward, a Worthy podcast. I'm your host Lucas Ritzen. Thanks so much for joining me. I talk a lot about play. I'm a dad, I'm a husband, I'm an educator and I'm a playground designer. So I want to gather some of my favorite people who are advocates of children and nature and create a space to have an honest conversation about getting more kids outside. The power of play is very often underestimated and I think we all need a little more play in our lives.

Lukas: My guest today is an award-winning architect based in Sydney who specializes in the design of children-oriented community environments. She has published a ton of research and spoken on stages across the globe about children-friendly cities and how to build environments that can contribute to the health and well-being of children. So it's no surprise I thought this guest would be amazing for your listening and your own personal development. She investigates the guidelines and policies implemented in Singapore, Hong Kong, Japan, Canada and UK and based research has founded a think tank called Cities for Play which aims to inspire and promote strategies for playful cities. Today we're talking about designing for and appreciating the children experience, cultural barriers, free-range childhood, the play ranges which I'm excited about, and a whole lot more. Please welcome to the studio Natalia Krysiak.

Natalia Krysiak: Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Lukas: Well it's a pleasure having you. Your work and putting together the designing child-friendly cities high-density neighborhoods is phenomenal and I'd love to get to know the story behind all of this amazing work you put together. There's a downloadable from through the Churchill Trust. You can download this booklet with all the information. The notes will be in the show notes. So let's start where we start with all guests, get an insight to you where it all began, and where did you play as a child?

Natalia Krysiak: It's a really great question. I always love being asked this question because it just brings back so many joyful memories for me, but it's actually - and I'm sure it's the case for many others, many listeners - it's really the in-between wild spaces that I tended to play in the most as a child. And it's quite funny now as an adult and also as a designer, I sort of realized that perhaps these were the spaces that make adults most anxious. They're sort of the chaotic spaces, slightly less organized spaces which had so much play value for kids because they were the ones that we weren't afraid to mess up. It might have been the overgrown patch of shrubbery or the hilly sand dune, whatever it was. It was a space that allowed us to really have the freedom to explore it, to manipulate it, and to really engage in that sort of self-directing play that was so valuable. And now I appreciate more and more now as an adult how important those spaces really are.

Lukas: And when you put your research lens on it and based on these cities across the world, what is it that drew us to those spaces from your findings in your research?

Natalia Krysiak: I think I had the real fortune as a child to live in many different cities. My parents were very adventurous and so they lived in many different cities and many different places. And so I had the experience to live in different environments and as a child really experience various spaces, various communities and neighborhoods and what effect that had for me as a child. And now as an adult, as a designer, as a researcher in this field, I'm starting to really unpick the benefits that these sorts of in-between and less, more chaotic spaces had on me as a child.

Natalia Krysiak: I think it's really the ability to manipulate the space which was really critical for us as children. The ability to feel like we had control over those sorts of environments and have ownership over these environments. The spaces that almost seemed slightly abandoned by the adults meant that then as children we were able to take control over them or really have ownership over them because no one else would be looking after these spaces. So they sort of became our own spaces, which was really valuable.

Natalia Krysiak: And really I realized just how important it is to have those sorts of in-between spaces, not just for kids but there's actually quite interesting research around how these sorts of spaces are really great for girls in particular. There's some research from UNSW which shows that these hidden nooks and crannies, spaces such as under staircases or in-between spaces that are really protected, isolated - these are spaces that young girls tend to be drawn to quite a bit compared to the larger fields and ovals that boys tend to be drawn to. But the thing is that often these spaces are seen as out of bounds. It seems slightly less safe and so often they're regulated so that kids can't use these spaces. So I think it's really valuable to really think back to your own childhood, types of places that you've played in, and understand why we might have certain fears as adults which limit the use of these extremely valuable play opportunities for kids.

Lukas: And when it comes to girls gravitating towards those areas, is that due to their maturity and gravitation towards more of the social interaction, social understandings? Is that why they're moving towards those spaces as opposed to the boys that want the blunter tools?

Natalia Krysiak: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's different types of play. And obviously it's not just girls, but it might be also some boys will be drawn to those types of play - the pretend play, the social play, the imaginative types of play. So under a staircase you might be able to create a makeshift house that becomes a home that you start to play with. And those are the sorts of play types that girls tend to be drawn to versus the more active types of play. So I think that diversity of play is really critical when providing different diversity of play spaces within our cities, to understand that you're not just providing for active play. It's actually providing for imaginative play, for creative play, for make-believe play, all sorts of other play opportunities.

Lukas: Also, how did your journey into play begin? What was the play cue, to use a play work term, from school playing in those forgotten spaces, the place beyond the fence, to being involved in architecture and specifically designing these neighborhoods for children?

Natalia Krysiak: I think definitely the fact that I lived in many different places had a big effect on me as a child, and I started recognizing how much of these experiences were because of the way in which the environment was designed. So when I started to study to become an architect, I started thinking about the fact that we've very rarely considered the needs of children when we're designing cities, when we're designing buildings. And even more so, rarely do we ask their opinion - of children - about how they perceive spaces, what they enjoy, what they don't enjoy. Anything to do with designing for children is very much created by adults for children, and a lot of perceptions about how children use space, how they should be using space, is then applied onto these spaces.

Natalia Krysiak: So I started questioning why it is that we don't respect children in that way when it comes to designing spaces for them, to ask their opinion and to really investigate what playability really means. So I've always been fascinated by this question and I've been fortunate enough to undergo a lot of different types of research to explore this topic further. And most recently was the Churchill Fellowship, which allowed me to travel around the world exploring the cities that are taking this on seriously, that are taking on this topic of designing cities for children as a policy issue, as a government sort of responsibility for not just engaging with children, but also for really thinking about the needs of children in the way in which we design spaces, the way in which we design spaces.

Natalia Krysiak: I mean, the amount of meetings that I have to sit through with developers where everyone's so surprised when you bring up this question of where do the children play? How will the children experience the space? Can we engage with children during this process? It's such a surprise always. And I hope to change that so that it's not something that happens once in a while, but it's something that has to happen as part of design processes and it is something that's just seamlessly embedded in the design and planning of our cities. And we're fulfilling the child's right to have a childhood. As an overview, that's what it comes down to. Every child has a right.

Lukas: Is it a relatively modern occurrence that we are starting to consider the child in design?

Natalia Krysiak: I don't think so. I think the idea of designing for children is certainly not a new idea. I know from my own childhood we lived for a few years in a city called Columbia in the state of Missouri in America, and there we lived in a neighborhood which was designed specifically for families with children. So it's certainly not a new idea, the idea of designing for families, for children, the idea of designing for children. It's just that often I think we get sidetracked, particularly with multi-unit residential developments where often these things cost money to implement. And so the argument has to be made over and over and over again about why we should be looking at this, why we should be prioritizing this, why it's in the best interest of society, why it's actually an investment into childhoods and into the long-term viability of our cities, of the sustainability of our cities, and the health and well-being of children.

Natalia Krysiak: So it's just an argument that tends to have to happen over and over again, but it's certainly not a new argument. I think it's been spoken about for many generations. And of course the idea of play is one that's so embedded in us as human beings. It's so integral to the development of children that it's something just completely ingrained in us. I think everybody understands the value and importance of play. It's just, you get it. It's just more how do we do it? How do we make sure that as our cities become denser, they become more and more urbanized, how do we prioritize this? That's the tricky question I think.

Lukas: Yeah, and the tricky challenge is when we reflect on our play, we can consider a really positive experience and integral memory creator when we reflect on our childhood. But then we kind of seem to forget the normal as we become adults, and it's only we need to have that constant prompt of reflection, constant prompt of reflection. And because everyone can relate - what did you want to do as a child? You wanted to play, and there's a reason for that. One thing I love about what you've mentioned time and time again in our chat just even now is the why, the why. And in your report you mentioned that it all began because of your fascination with why certain neighborhoods are good for children and why some are not good for children. So how do—

Natalia Krysiak: I think the way in which our environment is designed can have an enormous effect on childhoods. I think there's definitely social reasons why and policy reasons too why children tend to play outdoors less now than they did in previous generations, but as a designer I also think that design plays a huge part in this and can also play a huge part in the solution to encouraging more children to play outside. I think things such as direct access to outdoor play space, visibility of play spaces from balconies or from front doors, the quality of communal spaces, the quality of play spaces and diversity of them - all of these things can provide invitations for children to play outdoors. But I think from a larger urban scale it's also things like how children actually can use and inhabit cities independently and playfully. So how do they walk to school? How do they cycle to school? How do they have opportunities to connect with nature in an ever urbanizing and densifying environment? How can we make sure that every child has access to play not within 500 meters but on their doorstep so they open their door and they can play outside? How do we create playable neighborhoods where it's sort of just infused into both the culture and the design of spaces? I think a big part of this is also the fact that for so long we have been prioritizing the car over pedestrians and children have been - are really really disadvantaged from this. Both children and also the elderly in many ways are a lot more vulnerable in that sense. Often they're not driving so of course they're not able to get around with a car which means all of a sudden that they become really dependent on the adults around them to be able to move around freely. And it's also safety issues - the more cars we have on the streets and really prioritize parking, less and less children have been able to play outdoors in the way that they did in previous generations. So I think shifting that priority from designing neighborhoods around the car, around parking, and then shifting that to prioritizing how children might actually use the spaces directly outside their homes - I think that's a really great way to change the conversation and to really in a big way start influencing the way in which we design our neighborhoods and that in turn will I think really change children's experiences in their childhoods.

Lukas: Yeah, and one of the unique challenges that we have in Australia relative - that it's relatively similar in the fact that there's high density in the form of housing estates where everyone's jammed in, they might have their own yard but it's only a few meters, enough for a trampoline maybe, and then they're kind of like - I consider it more secluded than actually being in an apartment block where you have to move outside to engage and you can have those resources there. So how do we overcome this housing estate challenge if it hasn't been designed in at the start? How do you deal with that?

Natalia Krysiak: Yeah, I think in Australia we're just coming to this recognition that increasingly families and children are choosing to live in medium and high density housing either by choice because they want to live closer to amenity, public transport, or because of affordability issues too. So in many places it's cheaper to buy an apartment than a house, so there's many reasons for it. But the reality is that in places such as Sydney already 28% of apartment residents are families with children and this is predicted to increase to 32% in just the next few years. So you already have one in three households living in apartments being families with children. But I think this is a really really important topic for me because I think if we want to develop our city sustainably and through sort of livable density then I think we need to think about how families can thrive in medium and high density housing and a big part of this actually comes down to play. When you interview parents with children who decide to move out of more medium and high density housing to the traditional sort of low rise house with the backyard, a lot of it tends to be around the provision of play. They want for their children to be able to have access to the backyard where they can be inside doing their daily routines, cooking, doing their errands, whatever, and then the kids can be playing outside on their own safely. Unless we address how we can provide this within more medium and high density housing then I think the vision for a more compact city really starts to topple over. And a lot of cities are grappling with this at the moment. So cities such as London they've implemented a policy that means that every new multi-unit residential development has to provide playable space within the development itself. So this means providing really adequate space for children to play in communal areas, in shared communal areas. So it might be things like playable elements, having grassed areas that are welcoming for children to play. But apart from the design element it's also the regulation elements and making sure that body corporate rules can't prevent children from playing in communal areas and making sure that children are welcome to play in these areas. It's really the shift - how do we provide really great play opportunities for children that are living in these areas rather than just assuming that the choice has been made that they're living in small houses and so they won't have access to play space? Sort of flipping that conversation, saying it's the right of every child to have access to play space and how do we shift policy to make sure that developers are responsible for creating those opportunities for kids. So I think policy is a big part of this.

Lukas: Yeah, and that's not something we touch on being the advocates of like oh let's get boots on the ground, let's take action, let's activate these neighborhoods, but policy is so integral because if we flash over the pond and look at Sydney they don't have the policy around that. As I learned in your report there's a couple of global examples that do take this topic very seriously.

Natalia Krysiak: And I think Australia is really behind and needs to start taking it a lot more seriously than what we are at the moment. The reality is that outdoor play should happen every day for kids and I think it's the responsibility of designers or planners or policymakers to make that a priority so that every child has direct access to play every day.

Lukas: Play every day - motto that drives us forward. An observation I've made and it might be just completely wrong but I love your insight is that when I go and work with inner city child care centers in designing playgrounds and getting feedback from the staff about where their children that attend the center are playing, I'm finding that the inner city centers I'm getting the feedback that children are outside a lot because they're accessing parklands and the types of activities they're engaging with - I'm seeing that there seems to be more nature based engagement in those inner cities than there is in the outer suburbs. Is that what any findings of that in your work?

Natalia Krysiak: That's a really good point. I think yeah, often because of the pressure that governments have, local governments have in these areas, they tend to be a little bit more progressive and push these things a little bit further than the suburbs. I think in the lower density suburbs there's still the assumption that children - if you have a backyard children will be playing outdoors and of course we know that that's not true. In fact we know that majority of children don't undertake the recommended amount of physical activity that they need every day to develop in a healthy way. The obesity rates of kids in Australia are really really concerning. So there's a lot of reasons why just because you have a backyard doesn't necessarily mean that kids are outside playing. And in fact these sort of more innovative ways of engaging with kids through nature play programming might in many ways be more beneficial to children. I think this comes back to the question of design isn't always the solution. So just because you provide a space outdoors for play it doesn't necessarily mean that children will play. It also comes down to the culture of play spaces and I think in Australia we still very much have this sort of obsession with that play space equals physical infrastructure rather than thinking of it as actually a much more holistic understanding of programming alongside policy alongside physical infrastructure. So one of the things that you mentioned at the beginning of the intro was the idea of play workers or play rangers as it's called, and I think that's a really brilliant idea. Basically the idea of a play ranger - it's recognizing that children are playing a lot less outdoors and the reason for that isn't necessarily because there's not enough play space but it's because of sort of societal changes. So parents are more fearful of strangers, they might know their neighbors a lot less than they did in previous generations so there's less trust. There's also the issue of parents being fearful of judgment from other parents or being judged as being bad parents if they allow children to be playing outside independently. And so this idea of a play ranger came about - it's very common in Japan where in Tokyo where I visited most neighborhood green spaces will have play rangers implemented in these spaces during certain times of the day, mostly in the afternoons after school and at least three times a week. And the idea of a play ranger is to really stimulate play opportunities for children and to provide that safe environment for them so that parents can then feel confident that they can let their child go out to the park after school. There's a play ranger there looking out for the general safety of the kids, making sure that the kids are having fun, they're being playful with one another and it's really addressing some of these social barriers that we're seeing more and more around play. I think this is a really really clever way of addressing it rather than just suggesting that we need more expensive play spaces, better play spaces. It's saying well actually kids - based on your question at the beginning - kids, I'm sure most people remember as a child you don't actually need that much to play but what you do need is a safe environment, you do need other children to play with otherwise it's not fun for anyone, and you do need to feel like you have a certain sense of ownership of space. So that's really the intention of the play rangers. I think it's a really clever way of promoting more play opportunities for children. I think this would work really well also within suburbs just as much as it would in high density areas.

Lukas: density areas i love it and how do we move beyond that culture because what i see time and time again we see a development go up they get some type of firm involved and they build this huge big multi-million dollar structure and it's got climbing and it's got a slide and this is all infrastructure like this big fancy park if you will but it just feeds into that narrative that play is a destination it's something you go and do and it's like an event and it's about entertainment when instead of the process of plays all the time and it needs to be accessible how do we move beyond play being represented as a entertainment theme park almost to something that's integral for just a child to have ownership over to have playability and social connectedness i think this is a very hard question i think you know that's why we get you because you're the expert i don't have the answer i'm like who might be able to answer this it is it's a really hard question

Natalia Krysiak: i think you know designers want to design something that will get them into a beautiful flashy magazine and so you you do start seeing this strains of competition also in councils where you you see these multi-million dollars destination play spaces that are more and more sort of larger and more intricate and i often you know see see them as almost these being the the mega shopping centers of playgrounds you know you have this huge regional play space which is surrounded by car parking where everyone will flock to on the weekends but what we're not thinking about with play spaces is not just these these large shopping center type spaces but those small local community-run shops almost that that you need in order to create that diversity and that rich in our community i think that's what's lacking so i certainly have no problem with with large multi-million dollar place bases i think they're great but in order to complete that diverse palette play experiences for children we also need to provide a lot more diversity in terms of of play opportunities for kids so in my opinion every neighborhood should have a child-friendly design policy which then sets out how they are accomplishing a diversity of play spaces in their neighborhood so it has sort of a network of of diverse play opportunities which are then interconnected with walkable routes to encourage children to be actively mobile so i think as soon as a neighborhood would map out their play spaces they would start understanding what the gaps might be and providing that diversity and i think engagement here is also really really critical for actually speaking to the communities to understand what barriers might be which are not allowing children to be active and playful at the moment and there's a there's a social shift that needs to come with that and one of the things i really loved from antwerp in belgium every year they run a play day through the entire community and on that day children are not allowed to receive any homework from from their school all of the children channel children's channels are switched off so they're sort of blanked out on the tv screens so children know that on this day they have to be outside they have to be playing there's a lot of activities that the communities run during this day during the day and it's all about normalizing the culture around play again so it's about the local council or the local neighborhood saying we prioritize play we think that this is of extreme value to our community and so we want to make celebrate this we want to celebrate play we want to give opportunities for children to get to know one another in their neighborhood and create sort of an opportunity for for a day to be celebrated around this i think that's a really simple way to start talking to parents to start talking to kids about what sort of place spaces they would want and then on top of that to create this holistic policy around around child friendly design of neighbourhoods to then implement that at a higher level and create that richness and diversity

Lukas: yeah that's a common theme i observed through your report is these communities have created a culture of respecting the childhood experience overall and over seeing past the mess seeing past the noise of some of the images that you've got in the report like a playground right next to an apartment block windows i'd be like you wouldn't you wouldn't be able to like so many developments here there'll be the developer going nowhere that's happening i've got to sell the apartment what's what's right right there so you touched on it briefly in your last answer but do you have any strategies for the everyday parent or educator to start creating that culture of valuing the childhood experience in play in their neighborhoods

Natalia Krysiak: i think yes it's it's tricky i think ironically adults want their children to be fearless but their sort of their own fearfulness of the potential dangers and negative outcomes will often interfere with allowing children to engage in these sort of healthy and challenging play play types to to build their courage and resilience so it's this really strange dynamic i think a lot of it comes down to understanding not just the risks associated with play but also the risks associated with not playing so it's a really big transition i think that we have to make in terms of the language that we use around play so not necessarily calling it risky play but adventurous play or self-directed play sort of you know the terminology that rather than trying to provoke a sense of fear it's actually provoking a sense of joy and and memory to what we did as kids i think you know more and more we're starting to talk about it i think there's there's more knowledge around it and and hopefully things will shift in a way to promote this

Lukas: you mentioned risk burst risk and since you're a practical practical practicing architect consulting with schools and child care centers how do you overcome that perception if you're designing in risk or highlighting it how's what's your strategy to overcome people that might have that barrier

Natalia Krysiak: i think once again it's sort of reframing the conversation a little bit we're certainly not trying to create more risky outcomes for children we're just trying to provide more more diversity and opportunities for children to engage in more self-directed play that also that often comes with the perception that it's more risky but i think there's been some really interesting studies from rmit university looking at the implementation of those play parts within schools and of course you're very well aware of loose play parts i know you're a big advocate for it but what they found in their research is that children that engage in sort of more self-directed play with more they tended to enjoy their time more but also surprisingly what they found is that it led to less injuries and accidents during school time or during recess time because of the fact that children were less bored they were more engaged and so they were less likely to be playing on something that wasn't intended for play so by providing these sorts of more self-directed play opportunities with recycled materials a loose part that's sort of more chaotic it looks more chaotic but it certainly doesn't mean that it's more dangerous and and in many cases it creates less danger because the children start to take ownership over their environment they start to create their own challenges and kids are actually really good at this they they know when to push themselves and when not to push themselves

Lukas: yeah and so by providing this opportunity for loose place of nature play for just a more an environment that allows for reconfiguration restructuring moving around all of this i think actually creates a safer more engaging environment and in the long term is much better for the health and well-being of kids i think we need to just shift our understanding of you know static play spaces versus more imaginative ones yeah absolutely and it's the trickle-on effect equally it's not just about that play in that play scenario and the benefit remaining within whatever your nature play zone or your loose part zone it's those experiences and learnings that push on into their life and day-to-day operating evidence of this is barambar east primary school here in brisbane they implemented loose parts a year ago during covert challenges for for children that needed to go to school at those times and what happened was they had a 70 drop in violent incidents within one year due to the collaboration that was happening and due to the functional literacy availability in the collaboration that then trickled onto instead of having a reaction in a physical way they were able to respond in a more beneficial way that then trickled into the classroom and then the parents saw this and now the parents are on board with it to see okay well if this is what's happening how far can we go with it it's an amazing shift so it just doesn't like you said it's not just this static experience it's not the destination of climb here and slide here that the child's not going to take away and take it home

Natalia Krysiak: yeah absolutely that's amazing yeah it's it's phenomenal and there's more and more data coming out of that school at the moment that's just blown in a way in attendance i think it's increased around 30 they've had a 30 increase in attendance to school and where incidence is zero in the loose part zone and multiples on the built structures in the school yeah i think you know as adults we really need to let go of control a little bit here and understand that by letting go of control we're actually creating a safer environment and a much more engaging environment that in return will create less risk for kids 100 percent you know we we need to i think talk about it more and be a lot more educated about it

Lukas: yeah i'm delving deep on that topic at the moment because i'm putting together a talk on creating creative culture instead of one of supervision because i get called frequently saying oh i can you come and do risk and play training with a got a problem with supervision and i was just like there's some something in this that seems to be a mismatch because there would be an incident would happen a child will get hurt and then the managing the directors or the teachers would say the principal education department would be like why weren't you supervising and the educators black and blue in the face saying i i was i was supervising i was supervising i was right there and it still happened so i kind of made some observations and by being right on top of the child and just out supervision has manifested into just directing don't do that be careful don't do this don't do that and then the outcome is we've stripped agency away from the child we've stripped decision-making away from the child so of course the moment we glance away an incident happens because we're not there to confirm the correct behavior instead of having a collaborative approach and giving the children the information they need to make an informed decision for themselves and encourage them to be courageous and convey to their parents w

Natalia Krysiak: When an incident does happen about this opportunity for to develop courage and adventure, adventurous play as you mentioned or free play and freedom and it's a learning opportunity to pass it on to the parents as well. So any research you know on that send it my way, I'm going down many a rabbit hole at the moment.

Lukas: Amazing, such a great topic. Also an amazing aha moment reading your research here was it takes a very whole neighborhood, a macro approach like it's a broad look at these neighborhoods and high density being apartment block areas. But the similarities between how I design play environments are just so, they're just you just take it down to the macro level and you need to create the same things or not create them sorry, to design them in for the children to have ownership over. Like the fact that there's access to nature is an outcome, social connectedness, active mobility, agency, decision making and sense of ownership are all there from a neighborhood standpoint. I actually took your report to a training I did on the weekend and saying these are the same things you need to create in your play environment and let's create environments not present resources. That's my, that's what we got, our default is that at the moment we present resources and go here you go. I said just we need to create the environments for the children to explore and have ownership over, stop presenting stuff.

Natalia Krysiak: Yeah absolutely, you're right. The macro and the micro is sort of very much aligned in terms of the principles but I often think that the urban design of cities is something that's just been so forgotten in terms of the experiences of children. And that's why I'm just passionate about reinvigorating these conversations around how we just plan for our urban design in our cities, how we implement these needs into the policies so that then it's easier for the designer at the end that designs actually play space because the infrastructure and the planning and the policy has been also implemented with the same principles. So it's sort of just a much more holistic approach.

Lukas: And it can happen from the other end as well as I observed in the report. The story I think it was Vancouver of the community saying no you're not rezoning, you're not building a road through this area. I think that you reference there was riots etc in that area and it was a community that stuck their flag in the ground said no we're prioritizing children. Can you give us an overview of because I just massacred what happened, my summary of that?

Natalia Krysiak: So in Vancouver basically what happened in I believe was the 1970s, they the city proposed a large highway to be built from the suburban areas that were very rapidly developing into the inner city areas. And at the time luckily there was a lot of protests around it and people said well you're actually destroying communities, inner city communities by providing these highways in a very unsustainable way of building. So why don't we instead of thinking about getting families from the suburbs into the cities where there's infrastructure, why don't we start thinking about how we can design medium density family friendly housing. And so they were the first really in the world that came up with a design policy for family friendly high density housing and there's some really beautiful illustrations and diagrams about what it might mean to create a child-friendly neighborhood. And to this day developers, architects, planners, they have to use this policy when they're designing multi-unit residential development so it's something that's stuck for a really long time and it's completely transformed the way in which Vancouver has been designed. So the priority has all of a sudden shifted from the design of CBDs which are for business and for the singles or the empty nesters and instead starting to think about cities in a much more child-friendly family-friendly sort of way by suggesting that families want to be close to infrastructure, want to be close to cities and all of that they can provide. So why don't we start thinking about housing in a much different way. And some of the things that they implement will range from the scale of the apartment so making sure that for example there's space for a pram inside an apartment or there you can comfortably bathe a child in a small bathroom or that there's enough space for a bunk bed in a small bedroom. So it sort of comes down from that smaller scale all the way through to the way in which we designed the actual complex, making sure that there is storage provisions for things such as scooters or bikes and all the other large toys that come with having children, making sure that there's passive surveillance of outdoor play spaces so that a parent can be cooking in the kitchen and look directly outside and see the child playing outside, making sure that there's bike parking and pram parking in communal areas and making sure that there's those individual communal spaces also where children and their families play. It's also about integrating day care and child care within multi-unit residential development but it's really easy for a parent to be able to drop off their kids downstairs in the daycare and then go back up to their apartment to work from home or travel into the city to work, understanding how families with children live and how we can enhance that for them within our neighborhoods. I think this is really critical and Australia's really far behind in terms of our thinking around this so we certainly have a lot of catching up to do.

Lukas: Yeah, yeah we do but it's people like you doing the work every day implementing it, honoring the design, considering the end user instead of the end outcome. And I think as a culture we need to like going to Finland and seeing the level of design and consideration in design right across the board for everything. It's like you going into a chemist and I had an umbrella and a coat and they sent you to the desk and there's an umbrella tube that you slide your umbrella in at the desk and there's a hook attached to the desk for your jacket. And it's that level of consideration that creates the behavior. Something I go to all the time, how environments create behavior and in my very novice approach I see it time and time again in your report. It's like the environment that has been used as a platform to build on, it's created the behavior that then in turn creates that community and culture around it. Then it's that self-perpetuating self-feeding entity. It's kind of like this synergistic relationship or the ecology, that's the word I was looking for, the ecology of the design being the platform for everything else to happen on top. We've talked a lot about the child as the beneficiary here but what did you see for the parents and caregivers and now the benefit to them from their children being engaged in playful environments?

Natalia Krysiak: One of the interventions that I really loved was in Japan also. They have these things called parent salons which are located within every sort of shopping strip in a neighborhood. A parent salon is basically a shop front with the provision of indoor space for play. There's also a microwave, a space to make tea or coffee, heat up some food for young children. And there's also a counselor and a play worker that comes in every day to check up on parents if they have any questions. And it creates this support network for parents and it also creates a really great platform for educating parents about the opportunities for play in the neighborhood. So the parent salons are run by the same people that will run the play ranges in the parks and also the adventure play spaces in the local community too. So it's sort of one shop stop where a parent can find all of the needs that they might need for within that neighborhood for their child. It creates a community where local parents can get to know one another. So this is very similar to Australia of course, we've got play group for young parents, it's a very similar concept to this but it's about providing a fixed piece of infrastructure where these play groups belong. And whereas apparently you can go to the same place every day, connect with the same people, connect with play workers or counselors to really come up with any challenges that you might be having as a parent. So it's that providing that network for parents which was so valuable and really incredible investment I think for councils to be able to create.

Lukas: Yeah and what did that journey look like for, it's in Tokyo as I recall, what did that journey look like to go from non-play workers, non-family cafes, canteens, what was it called, place their salons?

Natalia Krysiak: Parent salons.

Lukas: Parent salons, what was a precursor to that?

Natalia Krysiak: I think in Japan they have a really developed I suppose understanding of the benefits of play. I think it comes from an understanding of how play can influence the development of children but I think it also comes from this sort of efficiency in a way. They understand that parents will need to go to work, they need to be traveling to and from work and so during that time ideally the city can make sure that children have diverse play opportunities available to them. So it's this sort of both the culture of benefits of play but also the efficiency of providing spaces to play for kids which form this really strong network for parents. And it's really beneficial I think for parents. Apart from providing these parent salons they also create or they also provide adventure play spaces or they call them play yards. So these are spaces where children can be free and messy in an environment. There are a couple of similar interventions in Melbourne and there's three or four adventure play staff, adventure play yards in Melbourne. Nowhere else in Australia has anything like it but it's a really incredible facility. They're run by play workers, they act as a backyard for families that don't have their own backyard. So it's a space where a child can come in every day, be really messy, they can have a project, an ongoing project, a lot of recycled materials available in the play yard. There's usually a shed with tools, craft equipment and it provides a great opportunity for kids to go there every day after school. They're run by council so they're entirely free for all children to attend and it also provides that support network for parents. So it's a great space not just for children but as sort of a family hub where parents can come together, can meet one another in this safe environment and allow kids to take risks in that very safe environment intended as a very messy space. So slightly uncomfortable for some but a lot of richness and joy comes out of these spaces.

Lukas: Yeah and it's nice to see Australia adapting to overcoming the stigma of playing with junk as well which has been a thing that we've been when we're implementing loose parts.

Natalia Krysiak: It's in schools or doing pop-up play parents I thought there was going to be a playground pop-up playground and but once they slip once they see it I've had one teacher go ah this is what I want to do in the classroom but can't and I was like perfect you get it now within that loose parts realm absolutely once once you see it then you understand the joy and richness that comes from it which is why I think these sort of pilot programs are so important I think it would be amazing if either in Queensland or New South Wales we could set up a pilot project for an adventure play space I'm working on it we're working on it yeah working on it getting there slowly but surely and fingers crossed just using that play ranger model I think that could be a little step in the right direction of getting these communities used to something and then taking that leap because I think if it's not adapted you take that leap too far like I've seen schools try to implement loose parts and they just go all in and the parents freak out staff freak out and they end up pulling it all out because it's just too much of a stretch in the practice

Lukas: Absolutely agree I think we need to acknowledge that you know things are not the same as they were in previous generations parents are more fearful and in many cases when it comes to cars being on the streets their concerns are valid and so we need to come up with a lot more innovative solutions to overcome these rather than simply assuming that nothing's changed and we should just go back to how it was in the 1950s that's not your way no don't don't consider your feelings I'm right you're wrong change your habits that's not gonna work and that's what I loved about having this passive supervision within the play environments and accessibility so you're honoring that child that parent needing to scratch that security itch but still the outcome is you've been strategic and giving the child what they need equally as well

Natalia Krysiak: Exactly exactly so the outcome's the same but yeah way of getting there was far more successful makes everyone a lot calmer yeah absolutely yeah yeah and that's what make it sustainable

Lukas: A quote that I read in an article it might be in the report or it might be one of the few articles and blogs I've read of yours a quote from Enrique Penaloza I think that's how you say it the pioneer urbanist from Bogota and I love this sums up things beautifully children are an indicator species if we can design successful cities for children we'll have successful cities for everyone how much does that contribute to what your purpose and mission is

Natalia Krysiak: Yeah it's sort of fundamental I think to to what I do the the person that you referred to there the former mayor of Bogota his brother Gil Penulosa he started an organization in Toronto called 880 Cities and in it basically he argues that the base for any city should be either an eight-year-old or an 80 year old if you can capture the needs of both of those you would have captured the majority of needs of everyone and that's really saying that you know the this is a more vulnerable type of resident that isn't able to drive their mobility might be slightly more impeded and so if we can provide a safe environment for them an engaging environment for them an environment where an eight-year-old child can be out of their doorstep on the you know on the front lawn of their of their home on the sidewalk can be playing safely then chances are that it's also going to be great for the 80 year old who is waiting for the bus stop there because you've created a sort of a benchmark for what a livable and safe environment might be so I think this is absolutely critical sort of saying you know if if you get this right then chances are that you would have created a very livable and a very joyful city also to live in so yes it's it's a critical thing and I I wish that you know every developer in every planner when they were submitting a new proposal for a development or a building they would have to answer this question you know how have you created an environment where an eight-year-old child can thrive if you've been able to do that then I'm all asserting that you would have created an environment that's you know really livable for everyone yeah so it's a critical piece

Lukas: And the consideration at the beginning of the process not having that consideration at the end because in my observation within design it get tends to get hijacked by the outcome a lot of the time and then we feed in this narrative and create the narrative to suit the design opposed to create the narrative and then the outcome will be the design

Natalia Krysiak: Exactly and a lot of this also comes down to the way in which we engage with children in that sort of way so often you know children are consulted at the very very end of the process and it becomes sort of this tick the box exercise which I think is very you know almost disrespectful to the child knowing how much children can actually contribute meaningfully to the design and planning of our cities it's so strange that we will only ever engage with kids at the very end where they get to you know choose the color of the playground or the theme that the playground might be rather than actually having agency to sit at the table at the beginning of the decisions to decide where the playgrounds go how they're going to be designed how are they going to get there it's you know incredibly powerful and I think we forget just how just how children are so knowledgeable and and perceptive around these topics right before COVID I ran a workshop in Caboolture alongside NaturePlay Australia and in it we sort of asked kids these topics around what it is that they that they love or they hate about their places and their answers were just so sophisticated they spoke a lot about people with disabilities and how they would create environments where which were more inclusive for people they spoke a lot about how you know seeing rubbish on the streets really bothers them how they would put more rubbish bins on the streets they spoke about how they're really concerned about nature and how they would love to see more sort of mini sanctuaries for for nature within the cities you know these are topics which are extremely sophisticated they certainly weren't saying things like I would love to have an elephant themed play space they they were really touching on some very serious issues and they knew how to do that very eloquently so I think we need to respect the voice of children and take them on that journey right from the very beginning and once again I think they should be embedded in policy so it's not just something that someone does that happens to be passionate about the topic but it's actually a requirement for for every new development to have to engage with children right from the beginning and to get that voice into the planning

Lukas: Yep our big mission at the Australian Institute of Play is to have a children's charter and have that implemented like the like as you would in Scotland across the board so it has to be considered across all policy and that's our big hairy audacious goal I love it I'm very supportive of you you're a team mate yeah you know the irony of this the children have fostered this knowledge and wisdom around caring for nature and caring for the environment through picking up rubbish it's actually their teachers and carers and educators and families have actually created that learning for a lot of them they're taught it in schools but where we fail as adults is in the pro the practical application and the children see it so simply and say well you say care for the environment put more bins in so people can put rubbish away you say care for the environment let me go into it a bit more and so they're like the implementers and what I wrote a note just here was what came to mind from that 8 to 80 is like you're pairing up that knowledge with that reflection and then the outcome is that wisdom

Natalia Krysiak: That's a beautiful way of putting it definitely I love that it's it's you're right we you know we teach kids about all of these around all of these things about caring for nature and the environment and yet we don't give them the opportunity to be able to have ownership of it also to as you said to be able to go out into the into the nature play within it but also to really own it to create a space for themselves where they can feel like they really belong to a natural environment where they can care for animals where they can care for plants there's so much more that we can do in that way and I think it all starts with listening a little bit more to kids

Lukas: 100 100 getting out of the way what excites you most about where what opportunities we have in front of us in Australia

Natalia Krysiak: I think it excites me that more and more people are talking about it I think you know there's there's so many amazing organizations out there such as Nature Play Australia that really promote these values and I think they're gaining more and more interest which is which is really exciting I think Australians are a very adventurous bunch of people so I think it's only a matter of time that we start really embracing this idea of outdoor adventurous play I think it's really so much part of our of our history I think also if you think about Indigenous Australia and how much we have to learn from the way in which they educated their children through a very play-based and nature-based environment we have so much history around that that we can learn from and that to me is really exciting to be able to use all of this knowledge and the wisdom that we have in our culture in Indigenous history of this country and use that to to create a much more exciting joyful environment so that in the end you know we create the next generation of citizens that are ready to tackle the problem that we know are going to be you know challenging problems to come in our world so it's our responsibility to to allow for that to happen in a meaningful and effective way

Lukas: Beautifully beautifully said on that note I cannot improve on that statement it's about taking responsibility it's about honoring our history and just working with what we've got honoring that child and we will be good thank you so much for joining us today on Play It Forward it's been such an informative chat I love the work you do everything we've chatted about today will put in the show notes and links to your work and breakdown and blogs it's been fantastic any messages for our listeners

Natalia Krysiak: Oh thank you for having me I think you know and congratulations also to you to for this podcast and for leading the conversations that need to happen I think you know everyone should think a little bit more about how they can embed play in their daily lives whether you're a child or an adult I'm sure there are plenty of ways to create a more playful and joyful life

Lukas: 100 thank you so much and I look forward to you joining us at the Australian Institute of Play Childhood Summit towards the end of the year it's exciting really really looking forward to it

Natalia Krysiak: Absolutely thank you so much for having me

Lukas: Thank you