Sally Haughey on Play-Based Learning & Nurturing Brilliance

Lukas: Where did you like to play as a child? I ask this question a lot because childhood memories shape us into the people we become. Welcome to Play It Forward, a worthy podcast. I'm your host, Lucas Ritson. Thanks so much for joining me. I talk a lot about play. I'm a dad, I'm a husband, I'm an educator, and I'm a playground designer. So, I want to gather some of my favorite people who are advocates of children and nature and create a space to have an honest conversation about getting more kids outside. The power of play is very often underestimated and I think we all need a little more play in our lives. Welcome to Play It Forward, the worthy podcast where we dive into the heart of childhood, the power of play, and the people changing the way we see both. Today I'm joined by someone who has lit up classrooms and inspired educators across the world. Sally Hoy, founder of Fairy Dust Teaching, now known as Wonderled. Sally has built a global movement grounded in wonder creativity, the belief that childhood should be sacred and not rushed in a reminder for me to slow down. Her work reminds us to play. Learning truly happens when we are playing and that's when it comes alive. Where curiosity leads and joy follows. She teaches teachers, a storyteller, a guide for anyone who believes education should nurture the soul, not just fill the mind. Sally, it's an honor to have you here today. Welcome to Play It Forward.

Sally Haughey: I am so excited to be here. Thank you for having me. What a beautiful intro. Thank you.

Lukas: Thank you. And I've been fortunate and blessed to connect with you on a visit to Tulsa, see your work firsthand, um, feel your heart and hear your words for what you do. So, it's been a long time coming to have you on. Um, but I'm just so pleased to share what you do with the listeners.

Sally Haughey: Thank you. I I know I found a kindred spirit that we are really standing for the children, you know, completely. We're missiondriven,

Lukas: which absolutely I appreciate so much in you.

Sally Haughey: Yeah. And it's a nice reminder. Sometimes it can feel alone advocating

Lukas: and shouting out what to what feels like a void sometimes, but to hear some voices back, it's it's re reassuring.

Sally Haughey: It is. It is. And I just have to shout out uh one of our connectors, Sandra Duncan, who is

Lukas: such a bright bright light in our industry and I'm so grateful that she connected us.

Sally Haughey: Yeah, 100%. She is one of the go-getters and influence the OG influencer of the sector.

Lukas: She is.

Sally Haughey: So, she just visited Australia and I was like, I got to keep up. She just turned 80 and I was like, I got to I got to lift my game a bit here.

Lukas: She is a powerhouse. I Yeah, I hope I am the same at 80.

Sally Haughey: Same. Anyone that knows her says that exact same thing. Hope I'm like that at 80.

Lukas: It's great.

Sally Haughey: Yeah.

Lukas: Um, as we start with all our guests as a bit of a pull back the curtain. It says so much. Where did you like to play as a child?

Sally Haughey: I have very distinct memories. I was in Pullman, Washington as a little girl. My father was going to get his PhD at the time. And we lived in a house that backed up to a big rolling field and big huge bushes. And so I spent my time in the fields and under the bushes. So the bushes had this little crevice in it that my best friend and I would sit and, you know, pretend to cook, pretend to live there and then go out hunting into the fields. And I even was attacked by bees one time. It had like, you know, 10 stings and it never daunted me.

Lukas: Power to you. As someone that's allergic to bees, that's I'll keep with that.

Sally Haughey: Yeah.

Lukas: Yeah. Well, it happens. And how did that experience influence what you do today?

Sally Haughey: You know, the thing that was so marketked about that and I remembered it from age 3 to 7 was the time that I lived there. And I have vivid memories of feeling like I could create something that never was before. You know, like as a child, I had my hands in the dirt. I had my hands on the rocks, the the wheat field, you know, and and it was malleable. It was like my imagination was using the raw pieces of nature to fuel my passion in life, my curiosity, my hopes and dreams. And to this day, those experiences live in me as a driver. You know, I know it gave me who I am today.

Lukas: That's so transferable.

Sally Haughey: Yeah,

Lukas: I love that saying. I was able to create something that has never been and learning that at the young age. Phenomenal. Um, we are here in Australia. got a big listenership from Australia. They might not be aware that you have over 240,000 educators in your system, over 120 countries. So for those listeners of Can we get to what Wonderland is? One, can you

Sally Haughey: wonder? Yeah.

Lukas: Yeah. Wonder, not Wonderland. It is a Wonderland.

Sally Haughey: Truly. Truly.

Lukas: Tell us everything what it's about for those listeners that might not have come across it yet. and we'll have 350,000 in no time.

Sally Haughey: Right. Um I started in 2010 as a blogger. I was teaching in a kindergarten very academic and I needed the outlet. I needed to show other ways than worksheets and all of that. So I started just blogging. And then I started working for a Reio Ameilia inspired school and I started blogging that. And that's really when something magical happened and people started coming to my site like like overnight tens of thousands of people looking inside of this school that I was at. And it was really remarkable to me because I could feel that I had the capacity to share what myself and the work of my colleagues were doing and that was impacting children around the world. Now imagine you're in your classroom and the work you're doing is impacting children on the other side of the planet. If that's not a dopamine hit, I don't know what is. I was like, and I really um was humbled by it. And um with the school that I was at and the educators I was sharing their classroom, I did you know fun things for them out of that readership that I built. Um yeah. So what happened in 2020 I was doing fairy dust teaching going along and this is just how I roll. So this is really transparent. I it was 2020. I was living in Paris, France, and um and it was like really sharp lockdown compared to the US. And I had a dream of uh someone handing me a magazine. It was this most beautiful magazine and it said Wonderled. And it had children playing in the forest. And I woke up and I told my beloved John, I said, "I have to rename my company." He goes, "Why?" I said, 'I had a dream of a magazine. And that's still today. It's,

Sally Haughey: you know, it's like, and I think for me, I was thinking about this the other day talking to someone else, is that Wonderled is literally an expression of my own passion and play. It doesn't necessarily make business sense in some ways, but I absolutely love it. And just like you know the way the the you know fields behind my house as a child impacted me that that vision in a dream impacted me and I have to honor it. And so for me business is an art form

Sally Haughey: just you know it's a play form. It's like my passion loves to play and I think whenever I lose that I'll hang up my shingle and go on you. It's like

Lukas: Yeah. And and that feeds back into what you were saying that's creating something that's never been

Sally Haughey: Yeah.

Lukas: direct transfer there. What's your words of encouragement to an educator that might be feeling a bit down and out or controlled by curriculum and over academics and behavioral managing? It's not a term I love, but I know people feel it. Um, what would be your words of encouragement to them?

Sally Haughey: What I would say is that what matters the most, like if you strip everything away in your classroom, the materials, the furniture, the curriculum, what matters most is heartto-heart, as Parker Palmer calls it, deep to deep. You know, it's that relationship, who we stand there to be for that child. So, I had a child in one of my classes that nothing I did made a difference. And I began to feel like a failure as an educator. I would go home just to be honest and get on my knees and pray every day just praying for some way to make it through the year or was this a sign I needed to leave the field like this is not my cup of tea. like you know I'm not feeling progress and what happened for me was one day I walked in and I won't go into the long story of it but a colleague had suggested I do a technique with this child and I did it and I caused utter shame in that child. He literally in front of me was shamed. And in that moment, I knew what my purpose in the classroom was. And that was to love the children for the brilliance they are and for the brilliance they're not. To be there fully unconditionally. And with this child, he was chemically driven. So I was asking him to behave in a way he had no capacity to behave. And in that moment I thought it doesn't matter what another educator walking past my door thinks. It doesn't matter what the principal thinks. I am going to be here. I'm gonna be here for this child and I'm gonna have them know that who they are, the way that they were born, the the issues they are facing, I got them. I believe in them. Whatever I have to walk through with them, I am not here to have them comply. I am here to have them thrive, you know, and and that distinct like shedding of the looking good like the shedding of I'm the best educator on the planet to no, it doesn't matter. What matters is this human being who in reality the the word that came to me at the time is he is birthing his identity. Who am I in that? Who am I going to be as a midwife of his identity? Am I going to help him discover who he is even in the chaos or am I going to have him feel like a failure because he can't control himself? His executive functioning isn't there, you know? And it's like when you make that decision, it's like you can choose to regulate your own system and be present. It's like, does that make sense? Does that communicate? Yeah,

Lukas: 100%. And the listeners that have listened and or people that might know me, what you just said is why I love you and what you do. It is that it's a surrendering of yourself to serve.

Sally Haughey: Boom.

Lukas: Is what it comes down to. And we do get caught up. We're taught it's a learn behavior to produce as an adult and it takes more time to sit. And I speaking to a educator in Finland and I said if an educator have 20 minutes a day, what's the most impactful thing you can do with that child? And it comes down to she said sit with the child. Just sit

Sally Haughey: and be available. I'd love to hear more about that journey with that child.

Lukas: Yeah. So this is really

Sally Haughey: Yeah. And I have to credit this child. I call him Corbin. It's not his real name, but I call him Corbin for his identity. Um he is the reason I'm here today. He was my teacher. I'm clear about that because I had an ego as an educator up until that point. People called me Mary Poppins and you know I had quote no behavior issues. Well, actually it was I was in context that managed all of that. You know, it was not me because no one has that kind of power, right? Like it's just ridiculous to to build ego on that. But with Corbin, it became a journey of I learned where to stand in his his physical presence. So if I stood in front of him, it would immediately go in defense. If I stood behind him, his right ear, and I talked to him, just out of his vision into his right ear, like not in, but just here talking, he could process me. So I began to look at him as what if if he has if he was born brilliant it's up to me to find the access to his brilliance you know so I started just being an observer a researcher and testing what worked and he had a lot like when he had those surges of you know adrenaline and cortisol he became violent So I built an area in ailier that had walls around it where he could go in and draw and express himself. So his favorite thing was to blow up people and have blood everywhere. So I gave him all the red markers and paint and he would go in there and do that and it gave him a safe place to express himself and it really made a difference. Um the next year when I stood outside my door welcoming the new kindergarten students coming in, he walked up to me, gave me a side hug and said, "Mrs. Hoy, do you want me to come and take down your chairs every day?" And I said, "Carbon, that would be amazing." And every day he came in and took down my chairs, you know, like he knew. And to me that really I was like, "Okay, that was a tough year, you know, but this child, I was his safe place because I loved him just the way he was and just the way he wasn't,

Sally Haughey: you know? I loved him for him." And I think that's more important than any freaking curriculum on the planet.

Lukas: 100%. What's makes me emotional. Um, and it's it's his act of service back to you. It's this reciprocal relationship.

Sally Haughey: You serve him and he's like, "Hey,

Lukas: let me serve you now. You're good. You've done good."

Sally Haughey: And that's like we don't always get that feedback, you know? He never said, "Thank you, Mrs. Hoy." He never said, "Mrs. Way, you saw me." He never said, but he did come back every day. He would give me a little side hug. And what he taught me was we may not be able to see the impact, but that love is what matters. You know, if you don't love a child in your classroom, they know it. Yeah.

Sally Haughey: You know, if you love another child, like I I started watching how what were my eyes doing when I saw some children like there's really cute children who say the cute things and your eyes light up when they come through the door. What about the quiet, shy, awkward child? Is my eyes not lighting up for them?

Lukas: Yeah.

Sally Haughey: Like that's not okay.

Lukas: That's not okay.

Sally Haughey: That's it. And the Sorry to jump in there. The

Lukas: Yeah. Do

Sally Haughey: someone was mentioned to me about this the stigma and the identity portrayed back to that child has a more bigger influence on their their life than like their schooling or their the demographic of neighborhood they live in

Lukas: a thousand%. And that the the research coming out now like from MIT about the two-way conversation that serve and return of I see you. I hear you. I get you. I And when we see children, they know if we see them. We can't fake it till we make it.

Sally Haughey: Yeah.

Lukas: You know, and this is what I love about brain science is that children are wired to read in congruence. Mhm.

Sally Haughey: You know, so if you smile like, "Hi, it's so good to see you." You know, they know you're fake because your facial mus a fake smile is distinctly different. It will not release oxytocin.

Lukas: Yeah. And the pinchile corner of the mouth, I love body language, geek out on it, but the pinch in the mouth is like

Sally Haughey: the um resentment.

Lukas: Exactly. children, they pick up on that.

Sally Haughey: They read it instantly. They don't know it, but they have it's like the substitute teacher thing, you know? They're like, "Oh, we know." They're terrified.

Lukas: Yeah.

Sally Haughey: I got you.

Lukas: Especially children that come from an environment where they might have a high level of adverse childhood experience.

Sally Haughey: They're hyper aware of it. And I think that's a gift that's been cultivated in me growing up in the really challenging household around alcoholism and things like that. That hyper sensitivity to read people and how they view you

Lukas: because you're like, "Oh, this could go this way or that way. I've got to read it

Sally Haughey: and adjust my behavior to suit."

Lukas: So that's amazing. Um, you mentioned there around the power of observation. um can from a practical standpoint

Lukas: a teacher's like okay I want to move from this instructional technique how do they start observing opposed to dictating

Sally Haughey: yeah I think the first thing is what we all know you have to be curious right you have to really you know as you say geek out like can I begin to understand my students by the way they approach me by the way they're interacting with their friends. So what I did is I took two students a day as my observation because it's a lot to observe, right? And when I did Waldorf training, I I did Rudolph Steiner training, my mentor back in the '9s said the child's physical manifestation will reveal everything you need to know about their soul. that it's the outer expression of the inner. Like one of the assignments we had was to draw the ears of the child, to draw their hands. So I would before bed at night, I would remember every child in my classroom and what their hair looked like, you know. And what's really interesting, you'll hit a child like, you know, I'd count them out, you know, okay, there's this and then there's Billy and then there's Emma and then there's, you know, uh, Britney and then and then I'll be like, okay, there's one more. Who is it? And then I knew that there was a problem in my attention of that child. And so every night I was remembering something. the shape of their eyes, the way their mouth sits, resting face, the the way they they walk. Some children walk on their tippy toes, some walk back, some slaughter, you know, like how does that child walk? So I became fascinated to know how does this identity express itself physically and not as something to fix, not as something to um change or analyze but as an understanding of that humanity. And I would even draw them, you know, I would sit and draw pieces of like, you know, the way they were holding something or the way they would sit on their knees in the W shape or, you know, all of those things. And what happened for me is I fell in love with each child's I mean unique like a like a uh I can't even put it into words but that every child has this completely even children with with you know I have auditory dyslexia Like even those like me who have processing issues, there's something magnificent just the way you are like and just to get personal like for my own faith walk like there is no mistake where God is concerned and can I can I behold the magnificence in front of me in all of its nuances? And my mentor told me something that that to me still rules today. She said, "Attention is love." And so that attention to just who they are, the way they articulate, the way they think. Um I even had a selective mute in my class and I did you know I was doing all my practice of just observing and been in multiple schools never talked and out of that just taking him in. He came and sat down and started talking to me the sixth weekend.

Lukas: Yeah.

Sally Haughey: You know because he could feel I wasn't doing anything but providing space.

Lukas: Cool. What do you say to the people that might be listening that is like, "Yeah, that's good in theory, but they need to get ready for school. Um, they need to learn how to follow directions. They need to know how to follow a task." And you engage with so many educators. What's the conversation look like when engaging with those educators?

Sally Haughey: Well, and you know, and I I worked public school most of my career. So, I was in highly academic, highly rigid places where a lot was expected. And I think what happens first, depending on your context, and I do honor context is decisive. you know, if you're in a really structured, highly tense um place, like one place I worked, I made sure that in my structure of the day, the first two hours, I had six points where I was saying the child's name. So, when they walked in the door, hello, I said their name. When they put whether they're eating a home lunch or a school lunch, I said their name. like I made sure that I had contact that I did attention and maybe I took one noticing a day of something for each child like what's their hair look like you know but I'm telling you in the most structured environment you can structure observation in between like there is no if you're committed you can find the way and the benefit of doing that like I was in this highly structured kindergarten. I did first grade as well, which was not my cup of tea, but kindergarten I love, is that the more connected you're with the children, the more you can actually have conversations. Like I had to do dibbles testing and I had to take them all into the closet and test them, you know, and I would, you know, I had the ability to actually brainstorm with them. They they knew I was there for them. I'd say, "Okay, this is what every kindergarten in this city is doing, and we have to do it, too. And this is my idea about how we're going to do it. What do you guys think?" You know, I get their buy in. Mrs. Hoy, why don't we do it this way? Why don't you do three kids before, you know, recess, three kids after? Like, I gave them voice into our process. And I think we underestimate children's willingness to be in collaboration with us. Like when we respect them as co-creators of the classroom, I I I I think we underestimate what children are capable of. My first grade class, I ran it open where they got to choose, but the district would come in and observe us. And so I would tell them the district's coming in. We have to do it their way. And I would set up the class and we would put everything out like it was supposed to be. And one kid um said Joe was his name after the team that came in and observed them doing it a quote to the district standards. He's like, "Mrs. Hoy, this is ridiculous. They should see how we do it normally. This way is ridiculous. This makes no sense. We don't have to think, you know. I was like, exactly, Joe. You don't. And he was like,

Lukas: John's voice right there.

Sally Haughey: Yeah. He was like, can't you tell them how we normally do it? You know, it's But I didn't lie to them, you know. I included them in my constraints.

Lukas: Yeah.

Sally Haughey: And I think that's scary for some people, but you know,

Lukas: and also I know that by speaking with you, it's important to mention in that context. It's not like you have a um secret agenda because your families are engaged. Your families are aware of this stuff. You're not teaching in a silo. You're teaching in a community which is a big difference between having secret practice.

Sally Haughey: No. And that's thank you for putting that in because that's really important. The first time I had the parents in the classroom, I told them exactly how I taught and exactly what to expect. I had said, you know, lots of cuz there were uh eight other kindergartens around me. So, their children's friends were going to come home with something completely different. And I said, you know, you're going to see worksheets coming home and your children are not going to be coming home with those things. here's why. Here's how I'm going to address it. I'm going to be in conversation with the children. We're going to brainstorm, you know, and you're going to see the results. So, you know, and if they had any concerns, they could see me. And four years, not one complaint because even my principal knew what I was doing. And this is crucial. It never works to be hidden, you know, to me to be fully owning of who I am. And if anything was required by the district, I did it, you know, like I didn't fight back. And that not fighting like I had to test them, you know, and testing young children is really difficult. If you've ever been through it, it's not fun. But I did that. But it also gave me permission to teach in alternative ways because they could see the results of my teaching, right? And if I didn't produce those results, then I wouldn't be allowed to teach that way. And I what I told my principal, I said, "Okay, I'm going to come at this in a different way. Give me until after Christmas. You know, I'm going to build community first and then we're going to hit the academics in in an alternative way, but we'll be where everyone else is by the end of the year."

Lukas: And he said, "You have one year. it comes to agreement at the end of the day.

Lukas: I love what you're saying about just saying the child's voice. I know it's such a simple consideration and some teachers say, "Well, I I do that. It's not just saying the child's voice. It's how you say that child's voice." You could say a child's name 40 times, but it could be Jack. Jack. Jack. Hey, Jack. And then he's heard he's got that reinforcement of like, oh, I'm doing something wrong here. Oh.

Sally Haughey: Oh, look out for the teacher again opposed to

Sally Haughey: being gentle, being caring, considerate of that individual. And I think that's one of the traps. Our words mean so much. And we say the children, the children. And yes, we do want to reach as many children and support childhood. However, they're a child. they're an individual trying to understand the world around them and those broader complexities.

Sally Haughey: When I think that what's so interesting like I had a parent reach out a couple years ago and said they had gone to Dallas, Texas and were in a museum with their children and their son who was at this time in high school started explaining his thinking about a painting and they looked at each other and go where did he get this and they both went Mrs. joy. You know, because in my classroom, the children were constantly bringing their theories and ideas about how things should be. This child who was in a family that, you know, didn't do that level of consideration of his thoughts is now at Princeton University. Like when we give children, it's not just that they're telling us their ideas, it's that we're acting upon their viewpoint. Like he became a major force in my classroom when we began to consider, okay, this month in this in the classroom curriculum, we're learning about penguins. You know, that's the statemandated. we can do all those worksheets that the state has given us or what's another way we could study them and I let the children help me create that curriculum

Sally Haughey: and that's where I think

Lukas: exact and so they got invested in it they got intrigued by it they got they would go home and want to study further I you know had parents all the time saying their children were staying they'd have to beg them to go to bed because they were you know trying to find out things to come back to class to share

Sally Haughey: like that's that's what we want.

Lukas: Yeah. You know,

Sally Haughey: curiosity.

Lukas: Curiosity.

Sally Haughey: Curiosity

Lukas: that we takes trust.

Lukas: How how have you transferred all of this passion of yours over to wonderled what's that look like?

Sally Haughey: Ah, so good. I you know I have worked really hard to share my perspective changes and also to acknowledge you know anyone listening who is in a traditional setting doing traditional practice you know we have to take care of ourselves first you know when it comes to relationship we have to take care of our relationship to ourselves and baby steps you know I call it in my membership one meaningful change one step forward is worth everything you know like we we don't have to change everything overnight if we just move slowly so what I try to provide are those easy oneoff ways to begin to transform your practice because sometimes just making it through the day is is what's in front of you and Again, I think we have to keep that priority. So, in my own work, I try to keep the priority of your heart to that child's heart trumps anything. You know, like I think the pandemic really brought out to me, I can't go, you know, this teacher is better than this teacher because th this one's playbased and this one's not. No, it's how are you relating to the children? what's your respect of that child? So I think in my work I try to keep it grounded in that that it's you know again as Parker Palmer said deep to deep it's soul to soul that's to me trumps everything and then the next layer is what's best for young children is play-based education but start with what that matters most your heart your heart children's heart

Lukas: and there's a timely reminder in that due to the current circumstance I know in the states from a funding standpoint um perception of teachers standpoint state um in in Australia we're having our own challenge around child safety incidents within the early childhood sector especially early childhood I remember when I was an educator and a brought a family member I'll say um said why don't you become a real teacher and there's that perception of early childhood just it's still unfortunately babysitters it's still unfortunately look after them they're done and then then when they push through the school I'm seeing more and more it's a family's expectation for the school to do the work to develop that child to understand their identity and I think the current generation are falling into that gap and not academically falling through the cracks but that secure attachment falling through through the cracks. So, what's your encouragement to educators that might be feeling a bit stuck within the sector, where they're going, how they're making a difference? No pressure. Solve it all.

Sally Haughey: Yeah. Well, and what I found, you know, I can only speak from the trenches of my own experience. And what I finally did was owned my own expertise. is that I owned who I was and the importance of who I was. And there's something about like I was at the time it was in like 96 97 I had precancer and this whole kind of brush with cancer and the first doctor I went to did not own his expertise and I felt extremely tragic in the room with him like I cannot trust this dude with my health you know like this is not going to work. So I started asking around who should I go to and this one name came up and I went to this doctor and he was unbelievably comforting because he was at home in his skin. He talked with great authority and understanding of what I was facing. And I was like, that's who I need to be for because I, you know, on the outside for me, it's not about I can't change society's point of view of me. That's that's not something I can do. But I can absolutely own who I am, the wisdom I hold, the love, the care, the commitment. And what when I worked for Head Start with homeless children, I learned something really important is that I had to address every family, no matter what they gave me, that they were coming to me with good intent. So, I had a a father come to me in the middle of the cafeteria when I was walking, you know, 26 children out to the pickup line. And he starts yelling in my face. You know, my daughter hates school. She's never hated school. What are you going to do about it? And he was a bodybuilder. And like I could feel his spit hitting my face because of my training with Head Start. I literally said to him without a beat, I wish every father cared that deeply about their child. I heard his intent. I didn't take it personally. He literally dropped his defense. I said, "Let me get these children to their parents and we'll talk." So, I learned how to take every parent for their best intent because if I don't have them on my team, I don't have the child. And so, I also worked really hard. I had another grandmother at come up to me and said, "My grandson said he didn't get snack. Why aren't you feeding him snack?" And, you know, I was like, you know, of course we feed him snack. But again, best intent. I just said, "Okay, you know what? I'm going to shadow him and make sure he gets his snack. I'm there for you." I said, "Whatever it takes. You let me know. We're a team, you know." And I bumped her fist. And she started sobbing and said, "His mother is diabetic, is in the hospital, and we don't know if she'll live."

Lukas: Wow.

Sally Haughey: So like sometimes you don't know what they're walking in yelling at you about. But if we look at them and always go whatever they're saying to me is their good intent. Just like a child, it's a good intent. If I can hear what's underneath of it and find com collaboration.

Lukas: Yeah, that's such a in the secret source. It's easy to jump in. Well, parents do this or teachers do that or the system does this. What's the common ground? Let's meet there. Parents don't want bad for their children. They want the best. Going through a journey with my son like struggle and transition to school. Um diagnosis journey and teachers saying that like we commonly want want the best for the child and we've got to look for those common grounds to use as a foundation. Not what makes us different, what makes us similar.

Sally Haughey: That's it. And I think what happens, what I found because I worked with homeless families and they were no different from the families of wealth I worked with. All of them wanted what was best. So I'd be talking to a meth addict, you know, and they were fighting for the future of their child. And it really changed me that we cannot we have to stand in the future with like and this is probably my biggest tip is stand in you know like I put Sally myself into the future and I'm like where do I want this child and their family to be five years from now. How can I advocate? How can I be the one that makes the difference now that I'm going to believe in their child? I don't care if their child's throwing the table across the room. I'm gonna go, they're such a leader. They're gonna, you know, they're not going to tolerate anything. It's like

Lukas: the passion,

Sally Haughey: the passion. Like if I'm standing for that child, advocating for them with their parents, having their parents believe in them, having a we're all like we're fighting for the future of this child's life. Like it really is that dire. And I know some people are like, "Sister, calm down, but but it's like it's so like we are so important." And I want whoever's listening, I see you. You may not get the recognition. You may not get the pay that you deserve, but I see you. You are making a difference that will last the rest of this child's life. Like that's worth all

Lukas: Americans. That's worth everything. Like go to bed at night and hug yourself and go, you know what? This is worth it.

Sally Haughey: If not me, who?

Lukas: Yeah. And a fantastic exercise that Sandra Duncan I said I think and you alluded to doing the same thought exercise. Flash forward 20 years. Ask your teachers, ask your parents, what are the attributes you want to see in that child in 20 years. They don't start talking about alphabet or maths or color recognition, kindness universally is number one support that child's kind. It's about the character. And it leads back to that observation and something I like to do and encourage educators to do. Do learning stories on the character of the children.

Sally Haughey: Yeah.

Lukas: And what you see in them and look at the difference and observe the alignment that you come into with parents because you're on the same page about what you do. You're meeting them where they're at. And flash forward, no one mentions ABCs. No one mentions that. Kindness, being able to regulate, helping others, um good mental health. Yeah. And let's let's teach that then. Let's come back to that.

Sally Haughey: And you see people and this thing that oh we get parents like why aren't they reading yet? Why aren't they writing a pen yet? Meet them where they're at. We're doing we want the best for your child. You want the best in this way and you can get your geek on refer teach them about their serve and returns and the physical techniques that you use that you can transfer over to them. team up a village to raise a child.

Lukas: I love that. That's that's it right there.

Lukas: Yeah. Um when it comes to wonderled you encourage educators to embrace curiosity and creativity. How do you go about that? Because the moment when I advocate for creativity, so many adults are just like, "Oh, I just don't have a creative bone in my body. It's not me. I don't like craft. I don't like this." What do you say to those teachers? Because for me, creativity comes from curiosity.

Sally Haughey: Well, I think it another way I like to put it is is follow your passion, you know, and do not be afraid to have your passion alive in the classroom. Maybe you're, you know, like I had a a co-teer once that was passionate about bird watching. And so, like, I'd have her bring photos of the birds that she took pictures of, and she had binoculars, so could we all go look out the windows at the birds? You know, it's like what is it that lights you up that you can hardly wait to get to? I had another co-orker who loved cooking, you know, and so she would leave the children in cooking, you know, as I think it doesn't creativity happens in anything that you're passionate about, you know, I'm passionate about business now. I'm creative with it,

Lukas: you And when we're passionate, we're getting out of that adult mind because and aligning with a child's way of thinking because we're engrossed in the moment and not worrying about the outcome. And for play, children are about the moment. Don't care about your scaffolding, Tanya. I'm just doing what I'm doing. And we can come along. It's a great technique to come alongside children instead of in front of them. Um, I worked with a center and we talk about superpowers and knocking down those walls. I'm passionate about messy play, mud play. If you're not going to let your children go outside and do that because you got sensory processing, you just don't like it, it's not for you, call me. I've got you. Um, I had one service where the girl was really into crossfit. It'd be rest time and she'd like I'm like where is she? And she'd be busting out push-ups at rest time. Like so when it comes to physical literacy, who am I calling?

Sally Haughey: Yeah, I had one who loved hiphop. So we actually did an end of the year hiphop uh performance

Lukas: because she taught them all hip-hop. Yeah, it was amazing.

Sally Haughey: And it doesn't have to stay exclusively to skills. No,

Lukas: I worked with one lady and she came from a family daycare background and this is a big sector in the states compared to Australia, family daycare. Um, she was older. She was so calm all the time. You could have that child that was having that emotional response and you were like, "Call Irene." And she'd be like, "Come, come here, my darling." No matter what. That was her superpower. you'll be like, "I'm I'm struggling here with with this. Call her in. I'll sub you out. Let's go." And that and that's that broader ecosystem. You got your microclimate of the room. Utilize that broader climate. Um it's that diversity of opportunity.

Sally Haughey: It is diversity of experience that then creates resilience in the overall environment. Bit of brain geek.

Lukas: Yes. And I think it's and I think it goes back to honoring the identity. Like you, again, I'm big about, you know, the educator needs to be, you know, seen, needs to feel their significant. And when we honor the passions of each educator, their superpower, as you put it, then they feel seen. You know, it's hard to have children seen if we're not seen. And you know by allowing the differences even like in co-workers to be able to hold the differences we have

Sally Haughey: it's ma magic you know we're not the same.

Lukas: Yeah. And it comes down to the psychology around we all want to be significant.

Sally Haughey: We do

Lukas: and that significance can come in a what we would deem a positive behavior or a negative behavior. So it's it's universal there. In your view, what's the biggest misconception about play in the early years?

Sally Haughey: That it's chaos. I think a really welldone play-based education is not chaos. It's not lacking structure. It's not lacking um guidance for children. In fact, my experience having taught in a traditional setting versus a play-based setting is the play-based setting was far more called far more out of me. I'm observing. I'm documenting. I'm, you know, going around supporting interest. So, I think so often we say play-based childled is is chaos. I say if you've seen that, it's just an educator who's learning. They haven't figured it all out yet, you know. They're they're they haven't built. It takes a lot of skill, a lot of expertise

Lukas: and a lot of letting go.

Sally Haughey: A lot of letting go. Yes.

Lukas: The surrender is real.

Sally Haughey: It is so real. And it's a completely different way of being with children, right? So, um, you know, just like a in a regular classroom, if it gets too loud, I'm not going to allow that to be because it's not safe. I need to be able to have an ear for safety, right? Like there's all those kinds of management things that are are different but the same, you know, different contexts, but it's not a a wild freefor-all where children are telling the educators what to do and the educators, you know, like I've actually seen educators who were afraid to tell the children no,

Lukas: you know, it's like

Sally Haughey: swings the other way. No, we do play base. There's no rules. I was like, you're setting this child up for failure. Exactly.

Lukas: Walk out the door. The world's not like that.

Sally Haughey: No. And you know, if I have I have a whole Itilier full of paint, I sure as heck am not going to allow that paint to go into my block area and all of the loose parts there as an open freeforall. You know, like if I bring really wonderful materials, I'm not going to allow them to be destroyed. Like they'll go, "Oh, the children destroyed everything." I'm like, "Where were you?" you know, it's like

Lukas: you just allowed that. You know, this is not that's not playbased. That's just lack of guidance.

Sally Haughey: Yeah. And I am a firm believer I was discussing with a group aboard from New York this morning that it's it's not about going just here you go run free and or equally here's all the resources you need everything's perfect you got a perfect environment. The best environments the best relationships come from a really confident and evolved practice through observation testing and applying. and that's how you're going to best meet their needs. The pin finding the Pinterest photo and putting that in your room

Lukas: is not going to do it.

Sally Haughey: Um, not going to do it.

Lukas: Finding a catalog and selecting something out of catalog and buying it is not going to do it unless you have that connection in relationship

Sally Haughey: that connection with families. When I say relationship, child and families as well.

Sally Haughey: And I think that too like introducing the environment to the children and setting expectations and you know actually modeling and being with the children so they can see the potentuality of of the tools. Like I had a whole cycle of how I did that with children so that I just didn't let them loose. you know

Lukas: as a p practical tip for our listeners because we have so many educators. What did that process look like about that introduction?

Sally Haughey: So what I literally would open each area so we'll say the art atilier or the block atilier that I would open it up and put out materials and start one introducing it having them explore in art or in blocks and we would literally collaborate. So I'd have in blocks we'd we'd um sit around and I would introduce where everything was at. And I didn't have everything out at this point, you know, like with fouryear-olds, I'm going to have uh enough that they can manage pick up and then slowly build it as they get used to it. But I would start building something and have a conversation with them to help me build and so that they're you of course in the beginning they're they're so quiet as they start building with me but that we're actually talking about the materials looking at how we can use them you know I I would even hold an object and go I wonder what we could do with this what could this be and a child would jump in and go I know what we could do with it you know and we would just it would I would literally take six weeks to open up all the centers and all of the materials so that there was this this atmosphere of respect and that I'm treating them with respect. I'm showing them where they go. We're like when we were done collaborating, we're all putting those things back. I'm giving them feedback. Yeah, that's where that goes. That thanks. Give me five. We got it. you know, um I just found that children when you open it slow, gentle respect with them beside you, it it's different.

Sally Haughey: Yeah, definitely. And it might seem like a minor thing and why can't they just follow rules? Um who loves being told what to do? But when it's a collective idea and that's an interesting task I invite people to do with their teachers to say who loves being told what to do here no one raises their hand but then we look at children and say well they just should they they can doesn't mean it's good

Lukas: and but when we make it about cocreating our experiences together we're jointly hypothesizing

Sally Haughey: we're testing together

Lukas: we're reflecting together it's coming to that agreement

Sally Haughey: and it's also for children who don't know how like I hear all the time children don't know how to play like they used to then I'm also modeling that you know I'm modeling how the materials can be used I'm asking questions they're collaborating in that creation and so you know I might go to the block center for a whole week us doing that before I formally open it and uh What I found was more um complexity would happen in their play, more asking for my assistance if they needed something. You know, it just became a whole different level than in my early days. I would just have all the sinners ready and let them loose. You know,

Lukas: it it's it was Yeah,

Sally Haughey: you end up with the pinball effect, overwhelm, emotional responses, and then you're like, I got to manage this. Um, I love a word that you mentioned there

Lukas: and you said, "I'm wondering."

Sally Haughey: That's one of my favorite phrases to come back to. I'm wondering. You're wondering about a child's experience. It's my business. So, if that child chooses, as you mentioned earlier, serve and return. I've put something out there. If they hit it back, it's on their terms. It's not me saying peppering with questions and saying you you're going to hit this back. I don't care what the answer is. You just better give hit it back. And then they learn what's the answer they want. I'll serve that back to them.

Lukas: But I'm wondering and children becoming the question answerers, not the creators. How was your day?

Sally Haughey: What did you do today? And they're like, what's the answer they want? Good. All right. Did that did that suffice? But I'm wondering how my son's feeling. I'm wondering how he's feeling. And I once again off to the side in the distance verbalizing. I'm wondering this. Sometimes he'll come back, sometimes he won't.

Lukas: It's a superpower. I'm wondering how this works.

Sally Haughey: I love that.

Lukas: It's so It is amazing. And I think it and that's one of the techniques I love the most is thinking out loud with children is like I'm you know I look and go I'm thinking I really want to put the candlesticks out but I'm I'm wondering if they could go here or here you know and then they they feel the openness to put their thinking in.

Sally Haughey: Yeah.

Lukas: You know so I'm just thinking out loud. It helps them see

Sally Haughey: Yeah. the thinking process of play

Lukas: 100%. Um, some partners of ours, amazing service, Winston Glades Early Learning Center, the team out there, phenomenal. They were changing their language and they were using wondering wondering. And one day the child, I don't know the teacher's name, but the child goes, "It looks like you're wondering again, Miss Amy." and they did a great reflection saying maybe we're using this a little bit too much. So verbalizing outside I'm wondering is also otherwise it seems like just a passive question.

Sally Haughey: Um little thought there.

Lukas: How have you managed or tips that you can give educators on cultivating strong community?

Sally Haughey: You've managed to do this across oceans.

Sally Haughey: How and what are the tips to educators? So one thing I think is really important in community is one to know who's in the community. So you know honoring culture and um faith walks. So like I know that I have in my bigger teacher community lots of different faith walks. So I make sure I offer things on Sunday. I offer things on days that honors all people in my ecosystem inside the classroom. I think that respect for each human being and who their family is. It to me it all starts with deep deep respect for the child and their family for my colleagues even if their pedagogy is different that I that they're not going to change towards mine unless I respect them. So everything starts with respect and trust in the innate goodness of who's in the room. So I think for me it's always hit that. And then the funny thing is when I in Head Start with the children that were, you know, really at risk. My first day of class, they were three-year-olds as a lead teacher, two assistants, 18 children, and they were literally jumping off the tables. It was like wild. Like building community was I was like, I don't even know if it's possible, right? One child had been in 13 foster homes. Another child had been thrown out of a car. Like we're talking trauma, right? And so I am a huge um drum person. I love drumming. So I had enough drums for all the children. So I put the drums out and we did drumming circle. So I would do talking drum and then they talk back and then you know we would uh I'd have other children do something you know and we'd all talk back the same and that made community. So sometimes I think it's doing something in unison like we go go crazy you know the huge sound and then quiet and so that synced movement created something and I think it's that synchronization of intention that moves people together. You have to feel that shared purpose. And for young children, sometimes it takes a unification in an actual act together. You know, the other thing I found that's unified my class is when we've taken on a project like, you know, even with the children at risk, we ga we we gathered um material and made blankets for babies, you know, and they love that, you We had mothers, homeless mothers coming in and using the sewing machines to make blankets for babies at risk in the hospital.

Lukas: So fantastic.

Sally Haughey: You know,

Lukas: it's that emotional contagion, isn't it? It's like being around other people that believe the same thing. And in recent times with so much polarization of beliefs and people and culture and identity, I love what you said there is founded in respect of your beliefs, your choices. I can still respect that. Do I need to endorse it? No. But I can respect it and we can unite in that respect as well. And well that if that's your intent, that's exactly why you built such a great big community here. It's um a testament to you. It's fantastic.

Sally Haughey: I was in New York City for the No Kings parade and um we were just going to go and see it and we knew it was happening while we were traveling through the city and there was at least a 100,000 people marching and so um there was four of us traveling. So we jumped into the the mix and started marching because it was something that we stood for. But what I really got in that experience with that unification of literally hundreds of thousands of people marching with their right to express themselves. And I and I was thinking as I was there, I was like getting really emotional that I wish in America we could come together and respect that we that every American has the right to their belief, but then we have to find our common ground for the common good. You know, I I love that I had the right to march.

Sally Haughey: Yeah. It was exhilarating and I wouldn't want to take away someone else's perspective even if it was different than mine. I don't want to do that.

Lukas: Yeah. And through my own experience traveling through the states and getting asked questions from an Australian perspective, oh, is everything all right over there? Like is it safe?

Sally Haughey: So, it doesn't matter where you sit politically. What I observe in people is it's people saying well I have a responsibility to do what I can based on my beliefs. That's it. It's like comes back to how am I being in my community? How do I support people? And that's like maybe it's a jaded view but only based in my experience. That's the conversations I've had which I I really like.

Lukas: And in my own family we have split views. My brother has a completely different political stand than I do and we've really learned to respect each other's differences. And I think the missing piece I think there's more of that happening um is to have the the voice of the people for what we want for the people.

Sally Haughey: Yeah.

Lukas: You know, and and it's, you know, it happens in political systems, right? They break down.

Sally Haughey: Happens in life.

Lukas: It happens in life. You know, get get two people in the room. One likes cilantro and one doesn't. It's there as well.

Sally Haughey: It sensitive time.

Lukas: It's very sensitive.

Sally Haughey: Coriander cilantro. We all call it different things. Um

Lukas: if for the people listening today um that have really loved what you're saying and feel alignment with it and want to connect on a level to be a part of this community. Where can they find you? What's the next steps?

Sally Haughey: Yeah, definitely check out WonderLed Teaching on Instagram, Facebook. Um, and of course our site wonderled. Um, we always have uh we have a free library you can come into and taste different pieces of our work. So I would I think that would be probably a great next step. Yeah.

Lukas: And personally I'll encourage the listeners if you want inspiration, grab a blog, share it with your teammates, do a group reflection on it. They're fantastic. there from a global perspective. So apply that and you will be you'll be grateful for your actions. That's for sure.

Sally Haughey: A thank you.

Lukas: And they can find books there as well.

Sally Haughey: Yeah. I have a new book out called Nurturing Brilliance and you can get it on Amazon and your favorite like Barnes & Noble, those places. Yeah, really proud of it.

Lukas: Fantastic. Fantastic. And when's that out?

Sally Haughey: It's out now. Came out in Jul Mhm. Yeah.

Lukas: Excellent. Link will be in the description. Um, all the links to Wonderled, all the links to Instagram, all in the show notes. Sally Hoy, you inspire me. I'm grateful for you. There's a few little reminders in there for me personally about aligning with my mission and how I go about that and having that servant heart and being removed about what I can do um opposed to what I can inspire in people. So I I thank you for that personally.

Sally Haughey: Thank

Lukas: you're amazing.

Sally Haughey: Thank you.

Sally Haughey: You're amazing. Thank you for your generosity of having me. I appreciate it.

Lukas: See you next time. They play fool.