Sarah R Moore on Play & Gentle Parenting

Lukas: Welcome to play it forward the podcast that explores why play is necessary for the well-rounded understanding of ourselves and the world around us. Our guests are experts in play from around the world including authors psychologists play practitioners who share insight on the science psychology and practical applications of play whether you're an educator exploring innovative teaching methods or a parent seeking to enrich your child's development we invite you to join us in discovering the transformative powers of play. Sarah is an author a certified gentle parent master trainer and a devoted mother and a brilliant mind behind dandelion seeds positive parenting. She is an advocate for the power of play inspiring countless parents worldwide to embrace a more joyful connective approach to parenting. Her expertise in gentle parenting combined with her deep understanding of play has made a significant impact on families everywhere. A big worthy welcome into the studio Sarah R Moore.

Sarah R Moore: Thank you so much for having me I'm excited for our chat today.

Lukas: In addition to Sarah R Moore we have Vanessa riten joining us to prompt some questions when we were delving into your content around parenting and having that shared experience together we thought it was a great opportunity to go backwards and forwards on our approach in parenting maybe some challenges that we are trying to work through with our children and we've got an expert available so why not I think valuable to our listeners thanks Vanessa for joining us as well. Previously we've always asked our guest where you played as a child we're going to switch things up a little bit I'm going to prompt you to start with a bit of a reflection when did you realize the impact of play.

Sarah R Moore: I love this question. One of my formative experiences as an adult having an adult perspective of play actually came while I was working for corporate America I was working ridiculously long hours every single week I was barely coming up for air and although I loved my job there was a part of me that frankly was kind of dying inside I was not having any fun outside of the corporate stuff so I was getting my intellectual bucket filled but as far as just enjoying life something was really missing so I looked around and found that within a 5 minute drive of my office there was an improvisational comedy school that offered night classes and I thought I need to do that never mind the fact that I'm not funny never mind the fact that I don't have a ton of stage experience somehow there's something about this version of play that is calling to my soul so every day at the end of my long exhausting business hours I switched hats so to speak got myself up on stage and ended up graduating from comedy school at night to sort of reintroduce myself to the power of emotional expression of freedom of joy of impulsiveness all of the things that happen in improv and that how as an adult I realized we never grow out of our fundamental need to play.

Lukas: It's a great answer and it paints a beautiful illustration of what play is there's that you went through that moment of that willingness to move towards which is essential and then there is an element of fear there is an opportunity to fail but then that reward outweighs that fear and pushed you beyond to then activate this playful spirit if you will ongoing and that's that embedded nature of play experiences that I think so many children in recent times are missing out on unfortunately.

Sarah R Moore: Yes I agree wholeheartedly and my personal definition of that I have changed since doing a lot of this work is really anything at all that brings you joy and part of the reason I frame it that way is that it doesn't have an upper age limit I want adults to be joyful I want adults to feel like life is the kind of thing I want to be doing on a daily basis and we can't do that without play in whatever form that takes and it doesn't have to look like a board game or kicking a ball in the backyard it can be anything at all that is joyful and that helps light up our lives.

Lukas: Yeah I love that it's those definitions that vary so much just by doing this podcast talking to children educators parents just asking what is play to you how do you explain it and some of them end up in a realm of well if it's about the outcome it's not play which is very systematic approach and very adult language I love Greg Muse is one that I've been playing with lately and he says if you want to understand play don't try to explain it just go and do it.

Sarah R Moore: Yeah I love that that's great.

Lukas: So Sarah I wonder if you could just tell us a little bit about what inspired you to write your book peaceful discipline story teaching brain science and better behavior.

Sarah R Moore: Thank you for asking there's the short version and the long version I'm going to give you the version in the middle and essentially it was that when I became a parent I had my daughter roughly 10 years ago and at her 4 month checkup I had a doctor look me in the eye and say point blank don't ever go to your child when she cries she's manipulating you let me know when you get ready and when I said I wanted to respond to her she said well let me know when you're ready to get serious about parenting well my jaw dropped my nervous system actually went into freeze mode I couldn't even respond to the man in the moment but I went home and started doing all of the research that I could possibly do about how important it is to be responsive to children not only when they're babies but when they're older as well and to foster a connection-based relationship only good things come from being responsive to our children and the more research I started to do the more it was put on my heart that I needed to help empower other parents and caregivers so that someday when whether it's a pediatrician or family member friend you know child care provider whoever it might be when somebody gives them some sort of advice that is contrary to what we know now about child development that they would be empowered to push back on that respectfully and kindly but to say actually I know something different that I'm choosing to do with my child and to lean into that confidently rather than second guessing themselves so although that doctor said to me and by the way we switch doctors right after that appointment to a better one much more responsive one but although he had said something that made me absolutely burn up on the inside in that moment about getting serious about parenting over time I actually morphed that into gratitude towards him to say you know what I am going to get serious about parenting thank you so much for making me so incredibly passionate in that moment that I would start doing this research getting the certifications learning about child development studying the importance of play trauma recovery all of these things and then basically almost a decade went by where this was still on my heart I founded dandelion seeds positive parenting but there was still no book and then essentially one day about a year and a half ago I literally woke up and I can call it nothing more than a divine download I basically had whole book chapter by chapter outlined including the title of the book I just had it all in my brain and it was just my job to do the typing and get it out there to the world and that was the impetus for peaceful discipline.

Lukas: That is incredible yeah that's a great reminder for myself as well about just to be that messenger of the why that's so important to go back to that doctor and I think it's a good representation of culture and this harden up or you know dust yourself off where do you think that's sparked that you know leave them alone what's your thoughts on it.

Sarah R Moore: Yeah well historically there have been psychologists for example a guy named BF Skinner who was a child development quote unquote expert at the time I mean I shouldn't use the air quotes because he was considered a legitimate psychologist however one of his experiments and this is hard to listen to so I want to let people know that if this is too triggering for them by all means ground yourself you know fast forward for a couple of minutes before you know to get after what I'm going to say here but BF Skinner

Sarah R Moore: He had a couple of daughters with his wife and with one of his daughters he literally created a box to keep her in as an infant and it had a hole where he could put his hand in for things like diaper changes and feeding and that sort of thing but it was his own personal experiment to see what would happen with this child and because she didn't die he basically started to perpetuate this story about you really don't have to do anything other than feed them and change them and they will survive. For stressed out tired parents it made it really easy for parents to say look this great researcher turned on his child and if he can do it that must be what I should do too. Back then we didn't have things like MRI machines that we could put a child into to say what's happening in the child's brain are there stress centers activating we couldn't measure what was physiologically happening in the nervous system of the child at the time. We now know that all sorts of bad things happen when we leave children in situations like that and modern day equivalent of it but unfortunately what's happened is that the myth has still perpetuated in society that was our grandparents generation give or take a generation depending how old you are but it's not that long ago that people thought this makes it really convenient and I'm going to do what makes it as easy as possible for me as the parent even though we now have so much more data about the importance of responsiveness and nurturing relationships for children.

Lukas: I just want to take a moment to apply your same gratitude lens to that story that one person has had a huge impact on so many so for our listeners just a little reminder of the impact you can have and that's why it's so important for all educators and parents to really prioritize play and the impact it has just through one person. I think that's equally influenced this ongoing culture as well about the harden up you'll find dusted off it's an extension of that do you think they're all related?

Sarah R Moore: I do I think everything that we do as parents is either drawing us more towards a connection based relationship with our children or driving us away from it so if we have chosen a path early on in our child's development where we are able to disconnect to disassociate and say I'm not going to be responsive to that child even when they're very young what happens is that when our child gets older we have effectively trained ourselves to still not be particularly responsive and it's a tough thing but I also want to say if for somebody who's listening and says oh no I wasn't responsive to my child when they're younger and I hear myself having trouble connecting now there is hope change is always possible there is forgiveness there is grace there is a path forward for you so even if you have quote unquote trained yourself not to be as responsive as you would like you can practice the skill because we've got something wonderful in our head it's our brain and there's something called neuroplasticity which is just a big fancy word that means we can learn new patterns and when we learn new patterns they can become habit and we can heal the relationship and bring it forward based on connection rather than based on whatever painful past we might have in our parenting even if it's family of origin stuff we're carrying forward. Cycle breaking is real and it's hard so it just takes a lot of practice.

Lukas: Yeah I actually would love to jump straight into the trauma recovery side of your work and I'm really curious to see how play can help children work through trauma it's been I think quite a passion of ours to see how that can be realized and you're talking about what we can change as parents and we also have the ability to change those pathways in our mind. In your experience and with the work that you've done how have you seen children transform from having traumatic experiences no matter what stage of their development and how has play or other elements of therapy or parenting being able to see children heal and come out the other side essentially?

Sarah R Moore: I love this question and there are so many different roads I could go down with it but I think to summarize play is essential in the healing of trauma for children. Play is as Jean Piaget said play is the language of childhood and we have to know that children are going to get their stressors out in the form of play. Children don't have fully developed brains like we have as adults their language centers aren't fully developed their processing centers aren't fully developed so a young child let's say it's a 5-year-old isn't going to sit you down and say you know I've had this really traumatic experience and I want to process it with you and go through all of the adultlike interactions that perhaps we would and a child is going to say I need to go play with my action figures or my stuffed animals or whatever. And here's the tricky thing for parents children often reenact their traumatic experiences in their play and sometimes I'll be blunt it can be kind of macabre or morose or hard to watch and yet what they are doing is something called building a coherent narrative around their experiences. Coherent narrative is a fancy adult psychological term but basically what it means is that we make sense of our stories. When children are allowed to play it through it's them making sense of their stories and coming to some form of resolution with it so if the adult sees something let's pretend that the toy cow is attacking the toy bunny it's tempting as an adult to say oh the poor bunny stop that let's be gentle with the bunny when really that child might have a legitimate need to do what they're doing in order to process something that has happened that was tricky or hard or traumatic for them so our best bet is especially in the case of trauma with a trained play therapist somebody who knows the language of children and how to translate it how to help the child heal. Play really does have to be the language through which they can process create that coherent narrative express themselves emotionally in ways that they might not have the skills to do otherwise but if we as the adult are too quick to put an end to a type of play that looks uncomfortable or inappropriate to us essentially what we are doing inadvertently even with the best of intentions is saying to our child you don't get to process that in your own authentic way and we interrupt their healing process so by all means work with somebody who's trained but play needs to be a part of it. The other thing I'll say briefly is to the extent that stress has increased play must increase all the more. Children only play when they feel emotionally safe enough to do so they literally can't the play part of their brain will shut down when they feel a lack of emotional safety so for a child who's been through stress trauma whatever it is they need to increase their play because it's creating more and more safety at a bodily subconscious somatic level so that they can thrive and build resilience rather than just stuff down the stressors that they've experienced.

Lukas: Wow there's a lot in that and it's quite overwhelming as well to hear as a parent or as a caregiver or even an educator to think that we could be prohibiting a child to actually play out the therapy and the recovery that they need for their own healing. Just with what you've said about children need to feel safe to be able to play that's quite heartbreaking as well because you think about children who are in environments where there is ongoing stresses there is ongoing trauma but there is no sense of safety for them either there's no safe structure for them then to be able to play and I know that we've had the great privilege of being able to work with some schools in our community where there are higher rates of violent homes of abuse of attendance being quite low at school and behavior incidents being really high where the schools have been able to implement certain play environments around loose parts in particular that have then allowed those children to begin to...

Sarah R Moore: outwork some of those difficulties that they're having and they've seen incredible results in those environments and for that Community as well have you directly worked with families or communities in the same way where you're and perhaps it's more about if we could just spend a moment talking a little bit more about the trauma work that you've done and the Brain science behind it

Lukas: sure yes I have done some work in this area and to be totally transparent I am not a therapist so I always do encourage people to seek Out official therapists for this work but by the same token I have seen in action in classrooms where I've worked in families that I've supported the importance of play and being able to increase that to help increase the child's resilience not only in processing that which has already happened but also helping prepare them in how to move forward and I talk a lot about that in peaceful discipline because play is an intrical part of helping children learn and I love that you brought up the loose Parts play in particular because often times people think well all right I know my child has to play more so we're going to sit down and play a card game for 10 minutes tonight and I get to check it off my list well adult initiated play where there are rules to follow and all of that really doesn't give children the benefit of free play that they need so it's the free play that's particularly important and the other part of it that's important to pull out is that going back to the example I shared couple of minutes ago with the toy cow and the toy bunny there are still ways to be present in the play without interrupting that and what I mean by that is number one stay out of your children's way let them play when they need to that's really important but we can also help increase our children's emotional intelligence and their empathy and things like that by debriefing with them for example if we've been in the room and the child knows that we've been present so it doesn't feel like we've been eavesdropping or what have you we can say to our child later on without criticizing their play or judging it we can say things like I noticed how angry your cow seemed earlier today what do you think was going on for them and you can validate the child's emotional experience that they are expressing through the cow in this case and be able to ask questions like well first of all validate the feelings it makes sense to me that the cow would be so angry I noticed that the cow hit the bunny on the head I wonder what else the cow could do when the cow feels like hitting that would still get that anger out but that wouldn't be harmful to anybody and you can help your child think of what else they might be able to do without going back and criticizing their play because as counterintuitive as it may sound sometimes their play is as it is exactly perfect for them without the adult intervention

Sarah R Moore: yeah I'd like to remind Educators and parents that you know we live a life where it's about the outcome and we got a checklist and we got a to-do list and we've got to do pick up some cleaning and dinner and all these things but then for the child it's about the the victory is in the process and not the outcome collaborate in the process and not dominate it because when we are dominating it ends up with that shutdown the frustration the anger even some guilt and shame around it when we're oh don't do that and it's well why I'm working this out it's an experiment here and it's a tangible representation as well now I think as adult because we have that experience and the language to use we give a lot of abstract ideas that aren't tangible we know children learn through their senses and experience but I just want to encourage the listeners don't try to explain something because a child has no anchors to pull into that reasoning as soon as it becomes tangible oh this is real I can feel it touch it work it out there's cause and effect within this engagement not just oh stay in your bubble the child's I can't see it where's his bubble where's my bubble I can't see it touch it feel it taste it what are you talking about yes and just creates more confusion it's oh why don't I get this thing and then those levels not feeling safe are increased to go to touch on that safety Point what's your tips for parents Educators to create that space where child feels safe to play

Lukas: brilliant question couple of things we have to remember that our children's brains literally aren't wired ours so we are really good as adults at being productive at getting stuff done and we can really end up overriding our children's need for downtime for playtime for simply being as they are so one of the things we can do is make sure that we are allowing enough open-ended time for our children because it's going to mitigate their stress and when their stress levels are lower their behavior is going to be better so it's an investment in our child's well-being by simply allowing more space more Simplicity we also have to remember As the adage goes all behavior is communication so if our child is acting out somehow be it positively or negatively they are telling us how they are feeling so if they are acting in a way that appears to us to be suboptimal that is our clue to say there's something for them that doesn't feel emotionally safe so my job as the parent or the caregiver or the educator is to say how can I support the child here rather than get judgmental or go back into my hyperproductive adult mode of we just need to get out the door we need to finish the thing whatever it may be but instead to know that it's the old Iceberg model we only see what's at the top but there's so much beneath at any given moment so if our child's Behavior does start to go sideways I'm going to quote somebody who was a friend of mine she learned it from her Mentor but it's don't get mad get curious we can lean into getting curious about what our child is feeling and needing which by the way is always 100% as valid as any adult feeling or need might ever be that Curiosity helps grow compassion in our bodies and the more compassion we feel the more emotionally safe the child will be because they know that we're not out to get them we're out to understand them

Sarah R Moore: yeah yeah and I think when a parent is at that capacity from the to-do list from the busy days they don't have margin the child's having an emotional response because emotional response is environment relationship combined and then they might be angry confused or upset but physically we're just seeing what we would reduce down to oh they're having a tantrum they're having a meltdown get up don't be silly we see it time and a time again with children however if you walked into your home and your partner was upset and they were having an emotional response to their day and we said don't be silly dust it off get up you're just having a meltdown you'd be how dare you what are you saying to me but for children were you're fine dust it off and I think if we don't have margin and it it does come from a place I think if we don't have margin as parents as Educators we're going to react to that and say oh this is if I have to deal with this and and go on this journey it's going to be hard for me the quick win for me is stop it yeah and I'm I feel great meanwhile the child's it's classic I've never seen a child that's having a emotional response be oh I'll stop at you're being silly and they go oh yeah okay good point no one does that right

Lukas: yes and I love that you frame it this way I do the same thing I call an emotional release I don't even using the words tantrums and meltdowns because they're so loaded and there's such an inappropriate description of what's really for the child in their nervous system so I I share your conviction about that message and I thank you

Sarah R Moore: yeah I was it's it's really not honoring to the child to to just say oh they're just having to meltdown you're they're having a hard time here meet them where they're at to just say it's a tantrum it's really really really segregating in that relationship and belittling

Sarah R Moore: Yeah patronizing yeah we did some coaching last year I suppose you call coaching with Griffith University and it's called the parent child interaction program or interaction therapy which I think you also have in the US it's called PCIT and what one of the techniques that you learn through that therapy is to have five minutes of play time every day so just dedicating 5 minutes 10 minutes if you can with the child and it's really allowing them to lead some of the play and there are some techniques that you learn to actually work through but the thing that I suppose I took away from that is how important it is to bond with the child to create that feeling of safety so I think as parents and mothers in particular we know how important it is to bond with our children when they're infants and that bonding time the connection for both the mother and the child is so necessary but it's still important even when they're six or they're eight or they're 10 and I suppose that play time can change now the reason I bring this up is because we also recently found a study that was done in Australia about the percentage of parents who actually enjoy playing with their children and it was quite shocking I know you're better with numbers than I am do you remember the statistics 35% 35% of parents prefer not to play with their children so I know that you talk obviously a lot around that connection with the child and I think just to that point particularly what could parents do or what would you advise parents who actually just don't they don't want to play because they maybe they don't know how to yeah what sort of advice would you give to parents and I think it's also important as well for professionals working in the industry as well who struggle with that connection.

Sarah R Moore: Yeah this is a beautiful question and it's a hard topic first of all I want to give those parents Grace and understanding because where that often comes from is a narrative that they received in their own childhood about play is a luxury only after you finish all of the responsible things if there's time left over then you're allowed to play but most days we were so busy we just didn't get to it so most of us learned in our own family of origin that play wasn't really accessible because we had to do all of the other things first so if that's where a listener is coming from I want to say you make sense you have your body has essentially forgotten that play is supposed to be a Birthright and yet there are still ways for you to practice playing in ways that feel emotionally safe to you so I'm going to throw out a couple of ideas that are going to sound unconventional but I promise you they can be incredibly effective number one if Play Feels emotionally unsafe to you with your child because it feels too chaotic or vulnerable or whatever it is for you practice doing something if I go back to my definition of play which is anything that brings you Joy practice doing something that brings you Joy for 5 minutes a day it might be that you turn on a song that you used to back before you had kids and maybe you dance in the bathroom when you are all by yourself before you get in the shower in the morning whatever it is you just find something that just ignites a little bit of a spark in your own nervous system in your own body because what you need to do is start creating emotional safety for yourself because without that you can't co-create it with a child whose play might be more chaotic than your own so the emotional safety part has to come from you something do it 5 minutes a day even if it's not with your child then what I want you to do is once you've mastered that visualize don't even go to play with the child yet just visualize what would it be like to play with my child for 5 minutes what's something that feels emotionally accessible to me do I feel safer kicking a ball around outside playing with building blocks doing something with dolls or Legos or whatever what's something that I have enough control over that I feel I might actually enjoy it and then thirdly take that thing into real life and do it but do it with an eye on the clock for yourself commit to saying I can do this for five minutes and then what you do is you look at the clock and I wouldn't even necessarily say that to the child because I don't want to create scarcity in the child's nervous system but just in your own mind look at the clock and say I can do this for 5 minutes make it to that Milestone and then ask yourself can I do this for 5 minutes more if your answer is no that's okay be gentle with yourself this is brave Uncharted Territory for you but the goal is to incrementally increase your comfort level with it knowing that on different days you're going to have more capacity than others if you're tired if you're hungry it's not going to work but on the nights when you've slept well you're well nourished whatever you might have a little bit more capacity that day and simply just take those baby steps into it making sure that it is actually enjoyable for you too because if it's something that only your child s and you hate it guess what it's not going to feel play for you so make it emotionally accessible keep it concise and then over time your emotional safety will increase in your ability to play with your child.

Lukas: That is an excellent excellent response and so practical as well thank you for making that that you know very accessible actually what's some examples that you would give of play scenarios play frames if you will that lend itself to someone starting out on their Journey.

Sarah R Moore: Well I personally think that music is a great connector and often times we have to find sort of the construct in which we want to use music and the the construct is really kind of the playscape that you're talking about so maybe it's I know that we're going to have dinner in a few minutes and there's some music on which my child and I can agree perhaps it's not the music that I really but maybe it's something that my child s that is tolerable enough and enjoyable enough for me that I can turn it on but essentially what I'm going to do is I'm going to use music as a means to connect us in this moment it'll be our transition time before we move into the next activity knowing that we're going toward the dinner table or whatever it might be and then the music's off I'm done having to do it so to speak and I can move into the Practical parts that I am so well conditioned to doing but it's some way to add levity to an otherwise mundane task I also really tying it with any mundane task whatsoever getting out the door in the morning can be a chronic source of stress for parents and caregivers and their children so so I might tie some sort of playful approach to this chronically stressful situation to lighten the mood so perhaps I go in with my false authoritarian hat on and say something I'm the parent you have to do what I say I made up a new rule by the way I am not at all an advocate of parents saying you have to do what I say because I'm the parent I want to be very transparent about that but I would say something I am the parent you have to do what I say and I have a new rule that when we walk from the living room to the garage to get the car everyone is required to walk backwards the whole way there's no forward stepping alowed anymore and in that very simple way we are literally changing literally and figuratively changing our perspective about a situation that was previously stressful but adding just enough playfulness to it that it's emotionally accessible while still being small enough that we can actually do it and odds are really good that most children are going to say I don't know what's just come over you because this is the part where you're usually yelling and it's hard around here but I'm going to try this more light-hearted approach along with the mundane thing that has to get done anyway how do those land with you.

Lukas: It's yeah that pattern breaker is what I hear it's all of a sudden we are in this routine and this is a process we go through and how do we turn these things into a ritual rituals are full

Sarah R Moore: of deeper meaning they're activating a lot of our senses and that's why I love the music to start it it activates it's it's a motive and I encourage the listeners to reflect on your routines of the day as a parent as an educator and say how do I turn this into a ritual which is full of that deeper meaning and it's about the coming back again to earlier in the conversation it becomes about the process not the outcome yes and I'd also like to mention for the listeners just to reflect on when are those times a day where you feel like you have margin as well don't set yourself up for failure by saying okay after school when we've got half an hour we're going to do this thing your child has been engaged and quite depleted for the day don't set yourself up for failure be considerate of all right is there margin the best way to get margin is to make sure you're doing those things that are fulfilling to yourself first creating that space in the cup if you will so you're not overflowing

Lukas: yes yes and it really is a matter of making it a habit but also playing with it not doing it so rigidly and as routine that it becomes no longer joyful you know you do to change it up

Sarah R Moore: it's the perfect balance of ritual with elements of novelty so still feels enjoyable it's predictable that's where the ritual part comes in it's predictable every day for example we're going to find some new way to get to the car but guess what none of them means we walk normally some days we're going to skip someday we're going to hop like a rabbit you know whatever it might be but we find ways to make it consistent while still being novel enough that it's interesting

Lukas: that's a really good point because if you focus on the ritual if that's just implemented as a part of routine it's now routine without that novelty I like that you mentioned about that communication with the child and I'm a parent and this is where the generational application comes in so many of us heard our parents say because I'm the parent and you're the child and I said so and I said so because I said so the way we represent relationship in words is so so important and you know looking at your books the gentle parenting gentle discipline as well maybe you could give us a big overview of how you got into that gentle discipline specifically

Sarah R Moore: yeah well I knew couple of things I knew the kind of relationship I wanted my relationship with my child to feel like I didn't necessarily have all of the details of the practical day-to-day stuff but I knew that at the end of every day I wanted to be the kind of parent that my child when she faces a problem in life that she will decide that she wants to run to me with the problem rather than run from me to keep it from me and that was really the emotional tone I wanted I wanted it to be one based on mutual respect and trust and emotional safety as we keep talking about here today and then I started unpacking what does that look like how do we create this kind of relationship well to your point it certainly does not come from a parent who says do it my way because I said so I'm the adult that's going to be a child who says I'm afraid of getting in trouble therefore I don't feel comfortable going to my parent or caregiver when something hard happens so really for me you know I got my certifications in conscious parenting did the Child Development study worked in a lot of classrooms really just studied all of the best practices about what helps children feel not that we are their peer necessarily because they do need adults to guide them and to be role models for them but we have to be emotionally accessible to them and that will come in the form of things like validating their feelings you know to your point Lukas it's not just dusted off you're fine don't worry about it it's hey it makes sense to me that you feel upset about that or whatever it is we just show up with them alongside them with the same amount of respect as we would give anybody else on the planet and from there we come back to this place of you know whether you call it conscious parenting gentle parenting peaceful parenting whatever I worry less about the nomenclature and more about at the end of the day do you feel like you and your child not only love each other but just saying do you like each other yeah because when we like each other we raise kids who will someday want to come back and visit for the holidays or whatever and not think oh no it's an obligation whatever it's it's a lifelong investment in the kind of relationship we want to have starting today

Lukas: that's wonderful thank you for sharing that and with the book I know that it's available obviously on Amazon and there's an audio book available as well indeed where else can big a pardon I said indeed there is yes where else can our listeners find some more of your resources

Sarah R Moore: thank you for asking so my website is dandelion-seeds.com there is a hyphen in there it's dandelion-seeds.com I've got expert interviews blog posts mini courses things like that I'm on all these social media out there as far as I know although of course new ones are popping up all the time but I'm dandelion seeds positive parenting with the exception of Instagram where I'm dandelion seeds positive living because the word parenting wouldn't fit there

Lukas: you go and you'll find all of those links in the show notes as well absolutely yes absolutely I just really want to honor this conversation because there was a point in you that really hit home for me personally around you know in the Modern Age we put play last and being a founder of the business involved with playing playful conversations and projects all the time it's just been a really timely reminder for me personally around you know play doesn't have to be the last and they don't do everything else tick everything off the list and then I have margin to do the things I enjoy and when we're talking about in an era where we're having some really big challenges in the community around well-being self-care and I just feel that that's a really poignant reminder for so many listeners to be what are you doing first for yourself how are you nurturing yourself not so much just going to get a massage but how are you being playful first what brings you Joy what brings you Joy and the list is still going to be there so Vanessa's nodding thing yeah it's good reminder I love I love your definition of play I think that that's a really great a great way of framing it around what brings us joy because I think the struggle for a lot of adults is well play was something that I did when I was younger that's something that I did when I was a child but we struggle to define what play actually means for us as adults with responsibilities with obligations with other people to look after so I think that that is a really really great definition of play and final question before we wrap up what are your words of encouragement to those listeners that are within this chat where do they start what's your words of encouragement to them to stay playful

Sarah R Moore: thank you for asking I would say most of all be so gentle with yourself everything you feel every struggle you have every belief you have every challenge you have makes sense because most of what we learn about ourselves and our beliefs about ourselves we learn between the ages of 2 and seven or 2 and nine depending on research and we have this incredible opportunity to reparent ourselves along the way of parenting our children rather and when we are able to show up with compassion with love with Grace with curiosity and with play capital P on the play because it's so important for all of us part of our inner child gets to heal from whatever conflicting messages they have might have received in our own childhood so there's always hope there's always room to grow and I'm right there doing the work with you just know that you are very much not alone be so gentle with yourself while you're learning because your inner child is right there with you cheering you on

Lukas: thank you so much Sarah R Moore for joining us today we honor you and thank you for the reminders to stay playful

Sarah R Moore: thank you so much