Reclaiming Childhood with Jennifer McCarville

Lukas: Where did you like to play as a child? I ask this question a lot because childhood memories shape us into the people we become. Welcome to Play It Forward, a worthy podcast. I'm your host, Lucas Ritson. Thanks so much for joining me. I talk a lot about play. I'm a dad, I'm a husband, I'm an educator, and I'm a playground designer. So, I want to gather some of my favorite people who are advocates of children and nature and create a space to have an honest conversation about getting more kids outside. The power of play is very often underestimated and I think we all need a little more play in our lives. Welcome to Play It Forward, a worthy podcast. I'm excited about our guest today. I'm excited to be back for a new season. Today's guest, Jennifer Macaval, has inspired me personally when I visited her in Texas. I was fortunate and blessed enough to speak at the Save Childhood Conference. But let's get into a little bit of a more formal intro. As I mentioned, one of the biggest and most passionate advocates of childhood and children that I've come across. Jennifer is also the founder of Marvelously Made, the one-of-a-kind school in Helotees, Texas. Founded in 2010, she's been creating a place where children are not rushed through learning, which I think is should be a foundation of all approaches where they development is honored and the individuality celebrated. I put that flag in the ground a declaration for all early childhood teachers. If you've know a child, have a child or been a child, that should be everyone's motto. In addition to that, as I skimmed across, Jennifer also leads a save childhood movement, which is true to its name. It aims to protect what's sacred about childhood, time to play, place to explore, and relationships that honor the children's emotional world. Thank you for joining us, Jennifer Legend.

Jennifer McCarville: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Lukas: Let's jump into it. The question I ask all my guests, where did you play as a child?

Jennifer McCarville: Where did I play? So, where I grew up there, there were a couple of my favorite places. And one was we our driveways at that time were just concrete strips for the tires. And so in between it was the perfect mud play place. So I spent a lot of time in between, you know, I would ask my mom to move the car and then I would just spend hours out there in my very own little mud pit. So I spent a lot of time there as I grew up, of course, with the neighborhood children. We were able to run and roam in the neighborhood. That's changed a little bit in the United States. There's some reasons that that's not quite the same for children, unfortunately. But we had the run of the neighborhood. We were the generation that was gone all day and came home when the street lights came on. And when I was younger and I was playing inside, which was pretty rare, shocker, but I was still looking for like a solitude kind of a situation where I could get some solitude. And I loved paper dolls. I had a lot of paper dolls. And I would hide behind the curtain in our living room. So my brother and my sister would leave me alone because I have my brother is 18 months older than I am and my sister's 14 months younger. So while I did love playing with them, especially my sister we're really close to, but um I would kind of snuggle under there and just kind of get away in my imaginary world if I was inside. But most of the time I was out in the mud or climbing the trees playing pecan wars with the other children in the neighborhood and gallivanting around.

Lukas: And how much of that do you do in adulthood now?

Jennifer McCarville: Yeah, that's a good question. I think I personally I think play is different when you're an adult and so the things that I play in and spend my time in and hobbies and things like that. Um I do I do enjoy learning new handwork skills and I actually get to spend quite a bit of time playing with my granddaughter because she spends some time with us. And then because I'm here at Marvelously Made every day, I get to spend quite a bit of time outside and uh I have to remind myself sometimes to get out there. But there's a lot of play that just happens in this place every day. So I get that benefit.

Lukas: Yeah. And the interactions I was fortunate to observe within the educators, teachers around engaging in the outdoor space is a bit of an anomaly compared to so many other centers. to get into Marvelously Made. How did that come to life and then if you can give us how it came to life and where where it's at now?

Jennifer McCarville: Sure. So, I've been in the field of early childhood education, grown up in Texas, been in Texas my whole life. So, I've been in the field for 35ish years. I kind of I need to stop and really think about it, but it's somewhere along there. And I really young even when I was in high school I was in a child development program and I basically we have these programs that are half day and you go to school you go to high school half day and then you go work in whatever related field you're interested in and then I was taking child development classes then and I was working in a child care center and it was actually there when uh before I graduated from high school that I thought oo I'm going to learn how to do this right because the children just didn't seem joyful and engaged and the things that we were having them do. I mean, I had 15 three-year-olds by myself. I was 16, 17 years old. And when I was had to teach them what the morning teacher left me to do, uh, they were just so joyless.

Jennifer McCarville: And I remember looking I it was a crystallizing moment. I remember looking at the children one day and thinking, I'm going to figure out how to do this, right? Because these children are so lovely and so joyful when they're playing, when they're able to and they weren't, it's not that they weren't compliant. They all sat in their little chairs and they all they were coloring the worksheet. It was we were learning about the R sound. They're three and coloring the rectangle red. Brilliant connections here. And they just looked miserable. And yet when we went outside or when I played with them inside or they were playing with each other, they were just joyful and learning and making connections. And so right then I thought, I'm going to figure this out. So I work I I went studied child development, early childhood education. I taught in a lot of places, did several different things, kept thinking, I'm going to go to that school and that's going to be the answer. And I learned a lot and there were some really great places I got to spend some time. just keeping on looking for the place that follows the practice like do our practices follow our beliefs and I it it was discouraging sometimes and sometimes delightful. Anyway, I had been in a situation where I was just really done. I'd worked really hard. I had created a program. I was in middle management created a program that was really lovely and not marvelously made yet. And I never intended to start a school. That was never at all my intention. I actually had left education and thought I'm going to I'm going to stay home. I'm doing a shift. I started to dabble in photography which I'd always wanted to study and I was just kind of taking a break and but I didn't intend to go back to education. So I accidentally started Marvelously Made in 2010 which is a story in itself. And we started in a little church and we had 17 children. We were preschool three, four and five year olds. And it was lovely and I didn't think people would do it because the school was truly designed from the beginning to honor development. That meant that the children were going to be doing things that children do, not doing things that adults make children to do in so many environments. And so I really was very bitter and kind of broken about education overall. So I was like, it's not going to work. I don't even care. I didn't have a dog in the fight. It wasn't like I sat down and said, I'm going to start a school and here's the plan and we got to raise the money. I just was like, "Yeah, I'll I'll start a school here." And they just wanted something happening in this church building during the week for children. So anyway, it's a long story, but we started with 17 children. In year five, we added kindergarten. And in year six, we relocated to our current campus, which is where we got to have you visit and learn from you, which was such a blessing. And we now have children 3 through 3 in the school for young children. And we have a fourth through eighth grade school called the collective. And that's a homeschool hybrid. So those children do language arts and math at home with their families or with a tutor or whatever arrangement their parents have worked hard to figure out because they want something different for their children. And so we go from 3 years old through 8th grade between the two schools. And we have uh almost 160 children.

Lukas: You saved joy.

Jennifer McCarville: Oh, thanks. It really is a joyful place.

Lukas: Going back to the joy, it really stood out to me when you said that. How important is joy in childhood?

Jennifer McCarville: Yeah, it's so important and it's so hard to protect which is, you know, but I I am encouraged. I think more and more people are doing it. You know, our goal is not to be in an echo chamber. Our goal is to continue on and make some ripples in the world and shake things up a little bit. and being able to have children who have these joyfilled childhoods who are doing really what kids do unabashedly just and being embraced by the teachers who understand their development and are helping guide them. There's a big misconception for a lot of people that if you have an environment that honors development, that aligns with the brain science and where children can be joyful of most of the time that they have no boundaries that they're never going to learn the character lessons or that which couldn't be further from the truth. you know, these children are expected to, you know, resolve conflict in genuine ways and work through processes and learn what to do with their feelings in ways that really um are appropriate in society. And they've got to we're nurturing that learning in themselves. And since you don't push against their very design, they're able to be joyful. And it's you can't give someone joy. It has to come from within. So, it's a beautiful thing to know that when you let them do what they're made to do and you trust the process that is designed for them to learn, it's it's longlasting, you know, they and they just are really joyful because we're not pushing against their nature, which is what is so common.

Lukas: Yeah. And it actually equips them for the challenge, for the tension, for the friction. And I think that's within observing your practice, you really sit in that tension between joy, child le and accountability. Accountability to children, their responsibilities around caretaking, their voice, their recognizing their own voice and then also the accountability for your teachers educators and families. I think there's there's no rule for parents that we expect of children and vice versa. And for the listeners, when we talk about Marvelously Made as a school, um I'll post some photos through the Instagram as well, so you can see it in person. Um I think I've got like a few hundred photos,

Jennifer McCarville: but it's not what you're probably thinking. There's alpacas, there's a cottage house, there's a big pig who's charming. Yeah,

Lukas: there's veggie gardens, sustainability learning zones, loose parts areas, outdoors, there's nooks, you name it, it's there. But it's an evolved space. And when I've shared with people since visiting you, I say I get to see a lot of environments worldwide. And so many people think they need to build an environment to have good practice. And I'm like, that's not it. an informed identity of practice fosters the development of environment and it was a good learning for me seeing how certain areas have been um curated and thinking oh they must have done this because of movement of play and the play frame and this and this and I was like oh did you do that because of that and I was like no that's just where the children did it so we adjusted it and I was like okay cool but you've got that beautiful observational practice opposed to that supervisor practice which is phenomenal.

Jennifer McCarville: Thank you. That's

Lukas: Can you share with us some of those accountabilities that you mentioned around children and their caretaking and some of those day-to-day practices you do to foster that joy and accountability?

Jennifer McCarville: Well, we invest a lot of time in mentoring, relationships, educating our staff, our teachers. Of course, they there's just something in a teacher who wants to honor children that you can just feel it in their, you know, you can just feel it in their energy. They have it in their bones. And I mean, honestly, we've had teachers who've come on board that aren't a good fit because they have a different idea of, you know, I always say we're much more interested in learning than in teaching. And when we understand children and we create an environment that meets their needs and challenges them and gives them things they can touch as much as they want to and they're doing important work and we're responsive to what they're doing, then they're going to learn. Now there are, you know, windows of opportunity and learning and developmental spaces that are best for coupling specific information and we definitely do that but we capture those in the developmental spectrum and we align those things. So we spend a lot of time on training together. We spend a lot of time reflecting as adults and we change our practice if it's not working. We also are slow to change it and we do respond to what the children are telling us they need and what is and isn't working. We're very intentional about invisible boundaries about very the we have very few rules but they're the most important rules. We really trust children to do what children do and we know that's going to come with conflict and emotions and we also know that you have to be fully emotionally capable and intelligent to be a successful adult. So, it's okay that they're upset or that they're having feelings. We allow them at their different stages to try and resolve those things. And then we step in if they're going to hurt themselves or someone else or they're going to destroy something mostly unintentionally. Sometimes they're just destroying something because they don't realize how powerful they are or they don't know, oh, that's made out of plastic and when you hit it with that rubber mallet, it's not going to. So those are all moments for us to build relationships with the child and to get to know them deeply and that practice in itself I think those things coupled together always putting the development first and the child being truly seen as a marvelously made individual. our job isn't at all to fix them. You know, I feel like so many educators I worked with in the past and even when I started in college, I was studying elementary education. I the feeling I got in the courses I was taking was very much like you're going to get these children and then you're going to get them in line and you're going to fix what's wrong and you're going to make sure they're all doing and I was so miserable. I remember going home to my mother just sobbing like I can't do this. I I I need to understand how they work. like why aren't we understanding how they're made so we can meet them where they need us to? Why is there this feeling of your job is to get these kids in line? And so that was when I switched to child development and early childhood education, which was very hard to find when I was in college here in Texas. So a lot of it even after that is, you know, 30 years of self-education, 30 plus years. But I know I went down a rabbit trail there, but to answer the question about the teachers and the practices, they have a genuine respect for the children and a desire to grow. So they're not coming in. None of us walk into these spaces feeling like we have all the answers, but we do know we do know to development. We do know children and we know that they're all unique and that they deserve for us to build a relationship with them that can help us understand what they need and to flex. So if something's not working with a particular group or we have the ability to change and a lot of people and in other places I've been as an educator that's never been my experience. So I see the benefits of that.

Lukas: Yeah. And I see that in your practice and it's actually very common through my travels to hear I went into the traditional system couldn't handle it. So now I do my own thing. And generally it's the people with a really great practice that are like, "No, we can't do that." I love the fact that when we look at child development, it's it's all children. I love that it doesn't matter about your race, your family's political views, cultural norms, any of that. When you focus just on the child, understand how to support their development. And that one little angle is the difference between fixing and supporting. Fixing and nurturing. You mentioned a phrase there, invisible boundaries.

Lukas: Some of our listeners wouldn't be so familiar with that. Can you give us a breakdown?

Jennifer McCarville: Yeah. So, what I mean by that is we've been so intentional and we have studied so deeply the environment, how it impacts the children, created it so that we know they're safe. Um, no, you know, we have things like just the way we can view the space so we can always look up and see everybody. We do struggle with that and that was something you've really challenged our team on and the teachers were really loved about your visit here when you spoke at the conference last year. Uh they really loved and we all took away how do we make these intimate spaces for children because we do have to be able to see them. So we're working on ways to balance that as well but we can see them. We make sure that what's in the environment is safe for them. We we take responsibility for, you know, if this becomes a complete Well, we I tease them that mess is a four-letter word, so we don't say that here. But if if something's going to be a complete disaster, we just ride through it because we know that it's going to be okay. We'll clean it up afterwards and we will reset. We'll choose different materials. Those are invisible boundaries. We make sure that all the doors lock automatically and everyone has to have a certain way to access different points. So the children could never not be where we need them to be. And so they don't have to wait for us to direct them. They don't have to wait for orders. They don't have to keep their their hands to themselves. And that's not about touching other people when they don't want you to. We do w walk through that with them. But I mean, I've taught in schools where they're not allowed to touch the wall and they're not allowed to do this and they're not and I'm like, well, some of them need to touch the wall because they need to anchor themselves in space because their proprioceptive systems aren't aligned yet. And some of none of that is taken into consideration, you know, it's just make the children do what the adults think looks good and obedient.

Lukas: Compliance is success.

Jennifer McCarville: Yeah. And we're not really concerned. I've never wanted to control children. Never. I've always wanted to help children learn how to control themselves over time. And that's a huge mind shift from people I've worked with. So many educators walk into the space knowing like my job is to get these kids under my control. That doesn't grow strong people and it doesn't grow people who can set their own boundaries and respect other people's boundaries. So these things that are invisible are all the things we've poured into and put our effort into before the children ever arrive so they can do things that feel risky even though they're not dangerous. So they can change the environment. One of the reasons, and this has been an ongoing thing, because we've just grown and grown. So, we relocated in year six, and we had preschool and kindergarten, and every time I thought, okay, that's it. We're done. We're not going to add another. And then we added first grade. And I was like, okay, kindergarten and first, that makes sense. Okay, we'll do that. Then, um, we added second grade. And honestly, we're a nonprofit and second grade, I hesitated with the board. I was like, for some reason, that was I knew that was going to be a pivotal thing for us. And it was frightening. All of our children leave at noon, which you know, just sustaining it. And we don't get funding from anywhere else except tuition and the donations that we can get because everything is tied to doing something inappropriate for children here. And so while we're constantly looking for other funding sources, we won't compromise that for the children. And so we have to be really careful. So as these spaces have unfolded, we haven't, like you said, we have slowly approached that at every phase where we know what the elements are that they need to have, but we also want to watch how they use it because you may think you know how first, second, and third graders use a space, but they can teach you so much more. You know, the books and the lectures and the learning are so valuable, but the experience is the only teacher, and that applies to all of us. So we would watch the children and see how they use the space and putting any structures that are immovable and things like that. We've been slow to do. We don't feel a sense of the we have to do something that will entertain the children. We want those open-ended things which I know you design so beautifully. You are so gifted and just really so impactful in the work that you're doing creating these spaces you do. It's just so inspiring to to us, all of us here, not just me. But um and that intentionality of yeah, we're going to create this space, but also the children really have control of so much of it. So, we've just let that unfold gently and responded as we've we're, you know, one of our teachers, um I I know you met her when you were here. Her name is Stella. Um they're they're phenomenal. But she said something to me one day and I said, "I'm going to I'm going to be saying that for the rest of our the rest of our lives." She said, "You know, a lot of teachers are good at talking to children, but we're really good at listening to them." And and it kind of even chokes me up now because it's so powerful and and we are. And that's a great delineator. Yeah. You know, are you good at listening? And it's not always audible. You're listening with your eyes, you know. Are you good at seeing them and listening to them? How much time do we spend? And we talk about these things. How much time are you spending talking to them or letting them talk to each other and talk to you? And the teachers aren't the star of the show here. The children are. So their job is to kind of be in the background unless the children invite them in. And even then, their job is to support and gently move out. So children learn how to get along with each other.

Lukas: Yeah. So listening to children and creating those spaces where they can move freely and work freely and we're not constantly saying you can't touch that, you don't know what to do with that. You know, that gives them those invisible boundaries where we know they're safe and we know the materials are available and good for them and we can trust them to do what they do.

Jennifer McCarville: Yeah, it was a very observable practice and to see it so embedded. One of the powerful aspects of how you collaborate and co-create in your outdoor environments and internal environments is not standing up being a warden and as I like to call it seagulling the environment just swooping around careful careful and annoying children

Lukas: and you guys have so many little seats staggered around find a seat and tell me how tell me the history of how that came to be. Um, so say if you've got a new teacher coming in, what are you going to teach them about it?

Jennifer McCarville: Yes. And that is one of the first things that I talk to them about and and the teams will talk to them about and they will model. Our job is not to hover over the children. It's not to police the children. We are not police officers guarding here. We are here to create an environment and trust children to go. So we know what we're doing. We haven't put things out there that the children can't explore. We're not creating anything that they need us to step in and control in that regard. And so your job is to we always joke it's like your job is to get down. Like if I scan the yard or the classroom and everyone is standing around like security guards, that's when you're going to hear from me.

Jennifer McCarville: And it's that's when I'm going to be concerned and that's just an unacceptable practice here. So they balance that with, of course, especially with younger ones, they're refilling things at what we call the potions table. You've got to be up and about because they need more, but they're not up and about because they're looking for something to correct or they don't trust the children to do what they do. So as they get older, of course, the teachers are sitting more. And you see it every day. It's a beautiful start to every day. And the teachers are all sitting. And you know, because you've been here, you can look out into our outdoor classroom and see as you walk in each morning in every area and all of the adults are sitting. And it's when you think about it, one of the things I talk to them about as well is we are giants to these children. It's like, you know, us walking up to a bear or Clydesdale or like these massive things that are so much bigger than us. And when you get on their level, they automatically feel more at ease. You know, everything here should be accessible to children emotionally and physically. So, when we are at their level, we're much more approachable.

Lukas: Yeah. Um, another one of your practices was that I was very interested in was not sharing. Can you

Jennifer McCarville: require them to share?

Lukas: Yeah.

Jennifer McCarville: Okay. Not to share.

Lukas: However, they don't have to share, but they also they do need to be kind. So, that takes care of a lot of things. So, we don't require them to share because we know that the human condition, especially when you're young. And let's think about it. They're whole people just like adults. I know a lot of adults who can't share. Um, they have to have their own needs met first before they could even think about helping someone else. And these are children and they definitely feel that way. You have to have ownership of something before you can give it away. And you have to have a if you have a scarcity mindset, then you're going to have to fight for what you need. So we will have fewer things but a lot of them. So the children know I don't have to fight for the red shovel because there are plenty. I don't have to fight for the ball because there are others. Now as they grow through different stages of development and they're able to navigate the sharing and the turntaking more naturally and they want to engage in that way with other peers. It works itself out. But still even at those levels these children have learned that sometimes you have to wait. I also have a firm belief that forcing children to share creates bullies. I think

Lukas: that for us

Jennifer McCarville: our job is to have power for children and power with children but never power over them. So if we power over them in a way that says he wants that, you need to give it to him. It's bullyish behavior. I'm bigger than you. I'm more powerful than you. I can make you do something and it's going to be unpleasant if you don't do what I'm telling you to do. So that is one of the foundational reasons that we don't require the children to share. Now we do encourage them and make them aware of other children. So we'll say okay when you're finished with it will you let her have a turn. Now the challenge with this practice is the child who has to wait. But it is such a good human practice to have a waiting turn and to respect that someone else is using it. So, we also have to constantly watch that it's not a hurt situation. And so, an example I often use because it's so clear for us is a child who's swinging who another child comes up and wants to, but they're not finished. And so, we'll say, "Gosh, they said they're not ready to get off yet. So, would you like me to read you a book while you wait or would you like to sit here? Would you like to go play and we'll let you know when they're finished?" Whatever we're going to navigate with that. Well, there comes a time around five or six years old where the child who says,"I want to swing to the child who's swinging." You can see the child swinging, who's beginning to learn, "I can have power over other people, and I like that." And because we listen well with our eyes and our ears, we are able to notice that heart shift in the five or sixyear-old where they're not getting off the swing because they want control over someone else's feelings. And that we address that quickly. We address it privately with that child, but immediately. So, we would walk up to that child and say something like, "You know what? When he asked you for the swing and you told him, "No, I can tell it's not because you want to swing. It's more because you don't want him to swing." And that's not kind. And it's important to be kind to people. So, I'm going to tell you, your turn is up in three minutes. I'll let you know. And we just walk off. I mean, we just call them on it in a gentle way. So, there's no gray area. Clear boundaries. Is it Huh?

Lukas: Those clear boundaries.

Jennifer McCarville: Clear boundaries

Lukas: with care, compassion, love, all of that.

Jennifer McCarville: And we have a relationship with them. So, we're, you know, they know that that they're valued and we care about them. And it's unspoken. I wouldn't let someone do that to you and it's not okay for you to do that to someone else. And we have a, you know, we just have a steadfast rule that people have inherent value. We are a Christian school. So people have inherent value because God made them. You don't need to be friends. You don't need to like them. You don't need there's no reason. So there's no gray area. Everyone has value. So it's a very simple like yeah it's not okay to be unkind. He's important too. So

Lukas: it's such a strong foundational practice

Jennifer McCarville: around that everyone has value. The amount of children that have taught me

Lukas: things about myself. having a conversation with a child at marvelously mad came and sat on the bench with me and we had a deep conversation and I still share that conversation with people now. It makes me emotional thinking about it. And I was like, this child's wisdom has just spoken exactly to my own challenge, my own struggle within my identity. And he just spoken to that and through sharing his challenge and I was like, what? And to miss that opportunity to prioritize our own control and try to create our own certainty. It's just a missed opportunity to set that environment. And when we talk about environment, I think what's beautiful about marvelously made is the people relationships are entwined with environment. Like the people and interactions make it. And I think that's a missing link for so many providers, so many schools. It's you have environment and then you have people and you have your children and teachers. these little silos and there's different priorities and different values and what you're getting back to is that everything has a value and and I love that about it.

Jennifer McCarville: Yeah. It's one of the reasons we have the animals and we have all the plants and we have the because you have to learn that everything in the world has value and we are to be stewards of those things. I want children to leave here knowing how to be contributors to the world, not just to be consumers. And so the value goes beyond the people and you don't instill a value for things by making sure everyone puts every block in the right position and making sure you know it that you know being responsible for yourself and tidying up as you get old enough and you you know grow through those stages is important but things have value because they exist for a purpose and we may not know what that is and it's not ours to know if we don't it's still ours to respect. So, and I think you know one thing you were saying um when you were talking about that disjointedness if you have the environment you have the teachers you have the children we also don't think that one is more valuable than the other

Lukas: you know we have life experience and we have a responsibility to support and help these children thrive but they teach us more than we teach them you know and and we mean that genuinely you know we like you said we have those conversations and when you're really spending those moments with them they're so soulful and they're so deep and they're just like us. Like you said, you have the same feelings. You can relate. They're just, you know, in different stages of life.

Jennifer McCarville: Yeah. 100%. And the basis of how you share your messaging and values is around a development focus. For so many people, adults, everyone, when we think development, the instant link is academics. So how do you balance and educate people on a development focus not being an academic focus and how do you offset that push of society that wants academics earlier and I think your special sources you've got that experience from such a broad age we're not talking just kind because there is that divide from early childhood to school do it this way early childhood do it this way but then you've got that full range so you've got some wisdom to share I just know it

Lukas: okay let's See, I'm going to dig deep here. Well, that is a beautiful thing about going through third grade. When we when we decided to do that, I was like, okay, this is really where we stop because early childhood goes through third grade, you know. I mean, that's um now, you know, physiologically, you know, those kinds of things, early childhood, middle childhood starts a little younger, but we're talking about in the education realm, early childhood is through third grade. So that makes sense because the research all over the world shows us repeatedly that when we honor the development and we provide the right experiences at the right developmental windows and we walk alongside the children, barring any, you know, any diagnosible difference, children level out by the end of third grade academically. So it doesn't matter if the child reads when they're four or five or if they read when they're seven or eight. By the end of third grade, if everything else is moving right along, if you've honored that and you've continued to nurture the learning and you know with novelty and excitement and etc., not entertainment, our job's not to entertain them. Um, but when you're nurturing that, by the end of third grade, they're going to level out. And that's why we say through third grade, you're learning to read and after that you're reading to learn, right? Those are phrases, I think, that are global, right? So, and that's why because there's that shift in fourth grade where they've kind of leveled out before they enter fourth grade. So, anyway, going through third grade, that's when I thought this is awesome because we know it. We know it, but now we're going to show it. And we're learning a lot of things. What still unfortunate is that when the children who leave after third grade, there are so many choices for education. And here we don't have any in my understanding, to my knowledge, that um really honor development, especially once you go into the fourth grade. In fact, it's to the contrary. And our parents are choosing something different for children. They are choosing something different. And parent education is the key to what you're asking me. We require the parents to come to a 2-hour tour before they can even apply. And in the tour, I lay out the development, the philosophy, why we do it the way we do it. I'm very clear that what they're not going to do, what learning looks like, what real learning is. I I debunk the worksheet and the pressure to perform. That's why we've started our podcast that saved childhood is because we want the parents to be able to go back and choose any topic and the educators to choose any topic and say, "Okay, one of the ones that we've released is the um why seven is the sweet spot for academics." So, if they're struggling with that concept or they're getting pressure from family or what have you, they can go listen and have that conversation shared with them. But that's one way we educate. We do require the tour. The parents are required to go to a um a parent education night twice a year and they make a commitment with us to educate their child and to learn what children need. So we are a learning community of adults. We are always educating. We are always sharing the why behind what we do. So when we post things on social media, it will explain what the learning is in the photo we're sharing. When the teachers send out their their digital newsletters, their job is to explain the learning in the photos they share. It's not to tell them what we're going to do next week or what we expect to happen. We're sharing with them what really is happening in the classroom and how the children are benefiting. So there's such there's just a necessity for us to educate parents and help them see why we do what we do and that pays big you know worked in many other environments and that's the tr that's the turning point really and you see also that they understand they're able to teach it to other people we the international play association was here that was the you know the first time that Sandra came to visit with us and the the parents of the school were most of the people the teachers were here. But the people who really helped the educators who toured during that conference were our parents. And the parents know learning. They understand development. They have become students of child development because they're intentional about wanting something different and they they have to have spaces that we provide them with that information and we expect it of them. I've been in a lot of schools where we say we partner with the parents. And what that means a lot of times for us is we do whatever the parents want us to do. Well, the parents need us to be honest with them about why we're doing what we're doing. And I loathe people who tell parents what parents want to hear and compromise children in the process. Yeah.

Lukas: And I just tell parents upfront, I will not compromise your child's development. I will not get the development out of order. So you can they can ask me to do things all day long. But I will explain to them and I will spend so much time with them answering their questions and explaining, but I won't cave. And I've actually said to parents before like, you know what, we're not going to be a good fit for you. So I'm not even going to give you a registration packet because you're not going to be happy here. And that's not fair to the educators either. You can't, you know, have parents who are constantly asking you to compromise what you know in your field and what

Jennifer McCarville: what's an example of a request that people could relate to.

Lukas: Well, parents who um are they going to be reading by the time they they go into kindergarten? No, they're probably not. Now, I don't know your child and they probably will be able to identify some words and then I get into, you know, how the brain works and why they can memorize the picture of the word and, you know, but probably not. That's not an expectation we have. might they learn to read somewhat on their own? Some children do. Then we have, you know, I have to avoid going down the rabbit hole of what reading is, but no, we're not going to do that. And so, if that's your goal for them, then this isn't going to be a good fit for you. And that's not going to be good for their family, for their child, or for us. Man, I have seen some parents do 180s. I mean, I I am amazed by parents. parents will change education and it's so important to me to equip them as much as I can with the information they need because the parents are going to be the one you know we have amazing teachers in all of our systems you know amazing teachers they're stuck so if we educate parents and the parents start saying

Jennifer McCarville: for it

Lukas: exactly we call ourselves educators is something I go about a lot is that we call ourselves educators it doesn't have to be I educate the children you're an advocate first. And I know that can sound a bit fluffy, but it just broadens your perspective and it makes it based on this ethical reasoning of like what's the facts say, not so much like how I feel or an emotional response of someone, it comes down to what is my ethical responsibility. And when I asked the education minister in Finland, why do you put such an emphasis on the early years? He looked at me like the stupidest question ever. And he goes, what? and his translator like double checked and he was like, "Oh, okay. It's our ethical responsibility.

Jennifer McCarville: The research says so. The data says so. That's why this gave me chills." Yeah. It's our ethical responsibility. Yeah,

Lukas: it is.

Jennifer McCarville: Yeah. And you know, it it is frustrating because there are so many possibilities for people to make money on children. And so what they do is they tell parents what will make parents happy because parents want good things for their children. And so they confuse and mislead the parents and then they torture the children so that they can deliver something that makes the parents happy. And we can do that. I spent years where I had to do things that I I can make children all sit still when they're three years old and color a rectangle red. I sure can. You know, yippy skippy. I'm like that is that doesn't serve the children well. And I just I at the end of my life I can't, you know, again following my faith beliefs. at the end of my life I cannot stand before my God and say I fixed all the kids you messed up you know like that doesn't even make sense so it is an ethical responsibility we have and with that is our responsibility to help parents understand parents want good things for their children and there's so much more joy in in parenting when you can help them see it's okay this is what three-year-olds do this is what sevenyear-olds do yeah

Lukas: you're not alone I mean we're made to be and community. We're not made to be alone here. Families are so isolated and separate from their families

Jennifer McCarville: that it's hard. So, you have to create that in genuine ways and we're good at that. It's interesting what you were saying about how we know what needs to be done. We see it and why, you know, in Finland they were like, "What are you talking about? That's a silly question." It's like we, you know, we need we need the someone else to articulate some of those things. And it's fascinating to see how people have gotten where they are, right? But we have something called the parent book talk and that is um four four or five times a year we have an amazing mama who leads that and she picks books that have to do with child development with you know um everything about raising children well and then the parents who want to participate read and we meet and we talk about the books and it's always so fun for me to hear them say like oh my gosh we read this book and it's all the stuff that you guys are doing and it's like this is what you told us when we had the parent education night and now we're to a place where we're choosing books that I haven't read yet most of the time which is fun and I remind them because I'm not making this up. This is I mean the if you are getting information based on the brain science and development it's going to be good information and it's going to be consistent. So that's one way you know if some of what we're doing to children, these new trends that come up and things like that, you can tell like, well, that doesn't align with what brain science tells us and what development says, so I need to look into that some more before I jump on that bandwagon. And that's so helpful for the children and for their parents. But it the community piece is a really beautiful thing. We're really proud of that and we invest a lot in it. you know, our parent education nights even are teachers in each classroom setting up tables with documentation about what the children are learning through the experiences they've had and the parents trying them out to see the skills that the children are developing and the the learning that they're doing

Lukas: and it's leads me into your advocacy being so aligned with um save childhood. So, can you share with the listeners how that came to be?

Jennifer McCarville: Sure. So, our Save Childhood movement is um um an extension of Marvelously Made School and because we believe so strongly in equipping people who work with care about children with information, we know that changes the lives of children in beautiful ways. And years ago, one of our parents who was leaving with her third child said, "You know, you saved childhood for my children." And she was one of those who did a 180. Like she came in and she looked at the bearded dragon and she was like, "They're not going to touch that, are they?" And well, are you are they going to have worksheets? How will I know what they learned? I mean, and she actually I actually told our administrative director, "If she calls one more time this summer because she's freaking out, we need to just give her all her money back and tell her she's not going to be happy here." And she didn't call after that, but she had called and called and called with all her worries. And this was that mama who stood there leaving with her third child saying, "You saved their childhoods." And she was right. And it was so humbling. And she left and we reflected on that and we just kept saying, "Every childhood needs to be saved. What are the things? It shouldn't matter. We have these beautiful spaces now and they get more beautiful all the time because we're growing into them and we're able to do a little bit as we do what we can when we can. But when we started, I mean, I had really ugly building with all the things that we know are not ideal for children, you know, all the plastic furniture, all the bright primary colors, all the and that's what we had, but we knew kids and we built relationships. So, the rest of that stuff was not the priority. You know, now being able to provide those things is beneficial and beautiful, but at the core, it's that you know the kids and you don't compromise the development. So those things you can grow into all of that. But anyway, so it doesn't matter where you are. It doesn't matter if you're in a little old church that doesn't have any of the what we consider best equipment. It doesn't matter if you're in the place that has the nicest environment. None of those things matter. What matters is you're doing the things that save childhood. So what are those things? So we kind of went on a journey of what is it we're doing here that you can do anywhere? because this was my practice before I had marvelously made. You know, this was my practice before that year of marvelously made. So what is it? So we've identified 14 things that we know if we all do will save childhood because we see it happening here and it's so much bigger than I am. I've struggled um I don't want to be prideful like personally prideful. I struggle with that but it is so much bigger than I am. I mean, these teachers and these parents who pour into this practice of learning what children need and honoring it without apology and without compromise are incredible. So, it's so much bigger than I am that I can say that we do that really well. And so, these 14 things we know work. We've seen them work. We have the proof and that's in the children. And so we've identified those things and now we've just started building this momentum to go beyond the parents in our community and help other people see and share that. And that also was encouraged by our parents here. Every step of our growth has been encouraged by our parents. They've been they're partners in what we do. It it really is a beautiful thing that sets it apart.

Lukas: Yeah. And I was able to observe that shift at the conference of the attendees and be like it makes sense now. It's all good to talk about the theory, but to actually see it work and them connect and relate in that is very impactful and it's fantastic. So, I appreciate that.

Jennifer McCarville: Hard because no matter what we're doing, these children are still going to places that their expectations aren't appropriate. And so, we have a lot of conversations about they don't have to catch up. They have to catch on. They have to catch on to something that's a little bit tricky. They have to catch on to something that's different language. So, we're working hard at developing our the best practices we can to help them make that shift to, you know, cross that over that bridge. But here are the things that confirm that we're doing the right things.

Jennifer McCarville: We have a child who uh one child who left and after third grade and went to another school and the mama was here with the younger siblings and she shared with me a this was a couple years ago and you know I was outside before school and she walked over and we were chatting and she said you know my heart is broken today because yesterday he came home and he said mama those children don't even want to learn they don't even like to learn and our kids love to learn. Those kids were grumbling and complaining because it was time to learn about something new and he was excited and she said, "I can just see the light, you know, fading for that." And she's really struggling with that. Understandably, we have another kiddo who um has um a tutor that is involved in the public school and in one breath is like, "Oh, just doesn't understand what we're doing. [laughter] Doesn't understand it at all." and in one breath is saying like, "Oh my gosh, of all the children I've worked with in my career, this one is the most excited about the learning when when I meet with them." And yet, if they were just in public school, everything would be so much better. It's like, are you hearing yourself? He's the one child in your whole public school career who loves to learn, who wants to do the experiences you're giving him, but you feel like if he wasn't in a place that was joyful, handson, engaging, he wouldn't be just like all those other children, you know, and that's when we go, okay, I get it.

Lukas: What do you think is that the main if you could narrow it down to a few points of to have that love of learning and how do educators foster that?

Jennifer McCarville: I think that it is the reciprocation of learning, the engagement of learning. I think that the children and and this is also the research when they're pushed early, they're burned out. They're already burned out by fourth grade. They're definitely burned out by seventh grade. And oh my goodness, help us all. By the time they get to high school, they're just done. So the the push down of academics has a cost that is way too high. And that is they can perform. We can get them to do the things that make us feel like they're learning, but we know that's not real learning. So, understanding the difference between them being engaged and knowing that slow and deep is the goal. Slow and deep, the journey is long. It's not helping the children for us just to push through material because they fill out a worksheet and we think they know it. It's experiences with the information. You know, how do we make it engaging? How are they using their hands to develop those math concepts? How are they having conversations about the novels they're reading? You know, what's happening that's really engaging their minds and giving them space? It's so rigid. We've got to get through this book of curriculum. We don't even have time to engage the learner. And if there's not an emotional attachment, it's the learning is almost impossible. Now, you get into older grades and those content areas are sometimes not going to be exciting and you got to learn it anyway. But you're older and you are able to do that here and there. But when their whole day is full of stuff that's not engaging and that is not interesting, they don't like learning. We're just biting our time until they can walk a stage. And we're just not about that.

Lukas: And how how do you see for those children that are transitioned through to this school, how do they handle that change of environment? Because personally when my son moved to the structured school he really struggled pretty much made me question question everything but it was his resilience and able to bounce back from

Jennifer McCarville: yeah I think that that we have those moments I mean I I'm not you know fully transparent I'll be fully transparent we have those moments and there are things that the children do struggle with because we haven't pushed them in ways that aren't appropriate. But here's what makes the difference. I think the resilience, like you mentioned, is key. And that comes from having experiences where they've done hard things. They've done real work. They've come out on the other side. They've had a challenge and it wasn't a flash in the pan. These kids are they're learning to do things that they keep trying over and over in gentle ways, in engaging ways, and they know that they're going to figure it out. They love to learn. They know how to talk to people. They understand their capabilities and they understand that they're going to come out on the other side of whatever it is. And there also are some real, you know, honest conversations. You've got to tell them like this is going to be different without frightening them because what you want them to know is they're going to be able to do it. But then when they get in there, it is scary for some of them depending on where they're going. We have one kiddo who was here with us from the time she was three until going into seventh grade. And she went into seventh grade in one of our charter schools. It's very academically rigorous. So she's in seventh grade. They put her in Latin 2. And her parent her mom went to the school and said she's not had Latin one. Can we put her in a Latin one class? Oh, all those kids are younger than her. That doesn't matter. She needs to learn Latin one. Like we have these multi-age classrooms. Like this child could care less how old the kids are. it doesn't matter. She needs to learn what she needs to learn and the way that she's ready to learn it. And so they were, "Oh, no. We can't do that." So this poor kiddo is in seventh grade and she's taking Latin, too. And we have this event at our school called pizza lunch. It's after school and anybody can come and our alumni will often come. So she came to pizza lunch. Her mom, you know, took her out of school for the day and she and her brother both came to pizza lunch. And I was talking to her and you know this is a child who's like these children become part of your heart. Like this is a phenomenon to me. I've been a preschool teacher and early childhood teacher. Well not for the majority of my life anymore but for a good portion of my life. And you had them for two or three years as part of your before they went on to the academic school or to the whatever. We have these kids from the time they're three until they're 13. 10 years. 10 years we're investing in these children and building relationships with their families and have them in a real genuine community and you just your lives are so beautifully intertwined. So she's here and I'm walking with her through the outdoor area and I said, "Hey, how's it going?" And she's like, "Oh, well, I got my first report card." And I said, "What's that like? You're getting the grades now." And she said, "Oh, yeah. I got a D in Latin." And I said, "Oh." She could have cared less. She knows that that doesn't define her. She said, "Yeah, I got a D in Latin, but they put me in Latin, too." and we told them I don't know Latin. So they had this confidence of like that grade means nothing really. I mean it it does mean I don't know Latin and that's okay. You know she ended the year making C's and B's in Latin and that's fine but she had A's and B's and everything else and this is at the academically rigorous school. Um but she was older so that does make a difference in a lot of ways to the catching on when they move younger. It depends on the child. That depends on the environment, but most of them catch on. We did have one this year who moved from our school to this same charter school, another, you know, they have several under this umbrella. It was another location, but the same the same philosophy, etc. And it was so miserable for her that after two weeks, her parents pulled her out and put her in the public school and she's doing much better. But, you know, that's the best thing we can empower parents to do, too, right? They don't have to suffer. It is it is the right thing. You don't want to be immediate and you don't want to overreact, but to watch your child and know this is not going to serve them well. Why would I why would I let this torture them so we can what? And just teaching people to ask those questions. What are you worried about? Are you worried they're never going to read or are you worried they're not going to read by the time they're five? You know, are you worried that they're never going to understand algebra or that they're not going to understand it this year? You know, why does it matter? Those things make the difference when they make the shift.

Lukas: Recently with doing a talk with Dr. Sandra Duncan, she asked the educators to do a reflection of what they wanted the in 20 years, the child that they teach this year, what they want them to be. And it was kind. And then when you think about that from a parent standpoint and the parents that want the academics and be able to read, asking them to flash forward 20 years because it almost seems well it is so so out of whack to think well in 20 years time I want my child to be able to read because they're going to be able to do it.

Jennifer McCarville: You know I've done that with the parents at one of our parent education nights. I've done it a few times and I give them like a shipping tag, you know, one of those. Um, they have the hole in them and we ask them like, "What is it you want for your child when they're an adult in 20 years basically?" And they all have the same answers as those teachers did with Sandra. I want them to be kind. I want them to, you know, I I want them to be happy in the work that they do. I want them to do important work that makes them, you know, all of those things. And then I have them on a ring in my office. I collect them all and I have them on a ring in my office and I'll read through them and then if I'm if I'm really on it, I'll give it back to them when they leave, you [laughter] know, to remind them like this this is the goal. This is what matters. So, um it is really interesting. Now, I don't know if they'd say the same thing if I had them do it the day they tour like you know in the beginning like you're talking about. It might be, well, I want them to read. I want them to accomplish this. But once they start, we all start breaking it down. It takes the pressure off of us which is a beautiful gift to the children.

Lukas: And if you could have your big prayer answered for what you would want for education and the education of tomorrow, what would that be?

Jennifer McCarville: Oh, I wonder if I could say that succinctly. I think that it boils down to respecting the individual journey of every child and trusting the process of development. trusting that it should be and I don't think it should always be happy. I think that's different. Like I said, joy comes from within. Joy is different. But that harder is not better. You know, I think that a place where they're doing so many important things and they're learning so many real life skills that they're able to tackle new things. You know, we talk about that a lot as educators, right? Like we don't even know what these children are going to be doing when they're adults. It's going to look different, but they're still going to have to be able to handle their emotions. They're still going to be able they still have to be able to get along with other people, and they still have to be able to face challenges and solve problems. We know that, but we're not creating and nurturing problem solving in them and on those, you know, emotional intelligence. We can't send them away from the home every day all day long from a very early age and not pay attention to the fundamental needs they that have to be nurtured in them in order to be successful people their whole lives. I mean I think that it would look a lot like marvelously made.

Lukas: What do you think is the most important attribute from personality standpoint for a teacher to embrace if they come back to that and focus on that that trait within themselves to project out to co-create with children? What would that be to you?

Jennifer McCarville: If I was going to pick one, I would probably pick humility.

Lukas: Well, that's good.

Jennifer McCarville: I think that's because I think with humility comes that knowing that there's so much more to learn and that I want to learn it and that it's not about me. It's not personal. I don't have to I don't have to fight for the recognition or the praise or the glory or what have you. It's not about me looking good and there's so much I don't understand. So, I think it would be humility.

Lukas: I love that. It's a very opening of perspective when you have that humility. And I think humility prompts you to be more present.

Jennifer McCarville: I think because you know you have things to learn.

Lukas: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. That's phenomenal.

Jennifer McCarville: I better be paying attention here because

Lukas: Yeah.

Jennifer McCarville: You know, I want to I mean with humility also comes like a I think a a character position that says I want to learn. I I want to explore that

Lukas: and I don't know.

Jennifer McCarville: I don't have the answer.

Lukas: I don't know everything. I'm not the authority.

Jennifer McCarville: Yeah. And I think you have to realize and I say this a lot too. We have all this responsibility as parents and as educators. We have this huge responsibility, but we have very little control, right? Because they're whole people. And so it really has to be about helping them and helping them fall within boundaries that are necessary is part of that, but it has to be about helping them and learning them and helping them flourish.

Lukas: That's beautiful. For our listeners that want to learn more about Save Childhood, I know you'll be at the NI conference. For our US listeners and my friends in Australia that will be traveling to NI this year as well. I'll be there speaking. So that's exciting. In Orlando, where can they find all things childhood, save childhood?

Jennifer McCarville: Great. We um now we have a podcast, so you can listen to that on um all those places Spotify YouTube. [clears throat]

Lukas: Links will be in the bio. Check it out.

Jennifer McCarville: Great. And then um we do have a website savechildhood.org and we will be at NI. So yeah, anybody who's going to be there, we'll have a booth there and we'll have a little information. We'd love to meet you and um answer questions and learn about what you guys are doing because um I know that in my my continuing research and in my exploration, so much of what inspires me and what I find align a lot of it goes back to where you guys are in Australia there.

Lukas: Oh, brilliant. We're doing something. We're working on it.

Jennifer McCarville: You're doing a lot. You're doing a lot.

Lukas: Um and I know you've got the um the conference coming up as well.

Jennifer McCarville: The conference is November 14th and 15th. So, it's coming up pretty quickly.

Lukas: And now you will get the tour of Marvelously Made. You'll be able to see it in action. I've been there. I've done it myself. I've actually shared so many photos of your environment examples. So, many of our listeners will probably be like, "Oh, this is what he talks about, right?"

Jennifer McCarville: Oh, yay. Well, I mean, all we want to do, all of us, right, is help each other do the good things for kids and

Lukas: 100%.

Jennifer McCarville: So, I love, you know, I'm so grateful for Sandra Duncan who introduced us. And what a blessing it is that I got to spend time with you when you were here, and I can't wait to see you in Florida at the NI conference. And it's just important that we help each other give people all that we can for these children.

Lukas: And from myself and the people that I continue to share your story with, thank you for doing what you do. Thank you for advocating first and foremost. You've just got such a humbled servant spirit for serving your community. And you don't actually just talk about it, which I think is so important. It's practice. It's observation. It's reflect. Adapt. And that cycle is always ongoing with you. And I know it can be tiresome. And I know it can seem like a bit of a thankless job sometimes, but I want to let you know that so many people are inspired by what you do and you don't even see them.

Jennifer McCarville: You're phenomenal.

Lukas: Thank you, Lucas. That means so much to me. It does. That's that's encouraging. I appreciate that encouragement. I think the same of you. I hope you know that.

Lukas: Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us on Play It Forward. Jennifer, you're phenomenal. Thank you.

Jennifer McCarville: Oh, thanks. Appreciate it. Thanks, Lucas.