Christina Keeble on Neurodivergent Support

Lukas: Our next guest is neurodivergent consultant with a strong interest in autism. She has multiple degrees, is a published researcher and co-founder of diagnostic and therapeutic services national peak center with 20 years experience. Her mission is to empower and educate others to understand neuro differences. Today we are talking about parenting neurodivergent children, supporting neurodivergent communities and the role of play for neurodivergent children and adults. A big warm welcome to the virtual studio, Christina Keeble.

Christina Keeble: Thank you so much Lucas, it's lovely to be here. I'm really excited about this chat and having you on board with your wealth of knowledge to share with our listeners. It's something we're hearing more and more of - how do we support neurodivergent children, the services schools are offering. In my own journey with my son going to school and going through NDIS assessment and all of those things and having that additional support for him as he starts school, it's all front of mind right now. So this is a great time and also talking to principals and directors of childcare centers and just being like they're kind of feeling they're a bit at a loss at the moment. It's like what direction do we take now because it seems to be - and I'd love your opinion on it - could lead into our first question: are neuro differences increasing or is it just a better understanding in recent times?

Christina Keeble: Yeah that is a great question and a common one. It's definitely we're seeing more diagnoses of neurodivergent children and adults and particularly those like myself who's a late diagnosed adult. I was diagnosed after my children and it was going through the process with them that I realized wait a minute this is - you know it's - I feel the same and it's really in a lot of hindsight now saying that the reason there's more diagnoses is that there is a much better understanding of what the spectrum of neurodivergencies look like. You know in my when in my growing up in my era in the 80s and 90s you know there wasn't the understanding of the full understanding of what the autism or ADHD spectrum looked like and I have both those labels now. Back then there wasn't a label that I fit under and my challenges presented in a way that was socially acceptable. It doesn't mean that the challenges weren't there, it was just that according to the school because I was academically gifted and I wasn't failing, I wasn't a behavior problem. According to the school because I don't like that word in general but in my era, you know they I was the quirky nerdy socially awkward kid where you know nowadays we're recognizing that the struggle can is still there but it was very much internalized and very much was affecting mental health and whatnot. It's a very - like I could talk all day about this but essentially to answer your question it's we are seeing more accurate diagnoses which I think is a really positive thing and it is due to a broader understanding of challenges that those with neurodivergent brains face.

Lukas: Yeah and we've used the word about 40 times but just so we're clear on terms so we're all talking about the same thing, could you give your definition of neurodivergent?

Christina Keeble: Yeah definitely. Before that though I want to talk about neurodiversity so neurodivergent stems from that concept and neurodiversity just to put it as simple as I can represents all brains within our species, all brains. Now someone who is neurodivergent is someone whose brain technically diverges from the majority and so what it is is the nowadays we're recognizing it as a natural variation of brains within our species so not that there's something wrong or deficit based but that there is a different processing or operating system if you like to how we experience the world with sensory information and other information coming in, how we process the information and then how we respond to the information. And those who get these labels they tend to include things such as autism, ADHD, all of the learning differences like dyslexia, dyscalculia, dysgraphia, Tourette syndrome and there's many more - that's not an exhaustive list but basically it represents those individuals whose brains when they come into this world are wired differently and hence that when this comes up in conversation so many people oh well I think I've - it's such a you know I'm guilty of that before I was formally diagnosed. And prior to that I self-identified for nearly two years and I know a lot of neurodivergent adults and parents in particular who self-identify because it's a bit of a privilege to be able to afford a diagnosis as an adult - there's no means to get support but I guess when you look at it and there's a lot of talk about this within the adult neurodivergent community is that you know we can completely relate and understand or have characteristics similar to somebody else but the reality is not everybody is neurodivergent and that you know I guess some of the discussion around it involves you know if we say oh everybody is a little bit this then it actually dismisses the challenges that come along with that and it is a it is a different operating system but I totally understand the meaning behind that and you know that relating and understanding certain aspects of that.

Lukas: And so just to clarify if we've got 100 people a majority of that 100 people would be neurotypical and then whoever sits outside that would have that neurodivergency?

Christina Keeble: Yeah and it is based around - the way that I explain it and this has evolved over the years but now in the era that we're in I always explain it iPhone versus Android example when you look at phones. So both phones make phone calls, make texts, can download apps however you need to use the right charger for the right phone otherwise your phone's not going to charge and you need to go to the right app store in order to download the apps. So basically it's a different processing system and it's about how you know you think about children how they interpret and experience the world around them including the sensory information, the verbal, the you know just all of the world coming in - it's experienced differently.

Lukas: Do you think that in that scenario where people are I'm a little bit of this or a little bit of that that's I think that's great evidence of the dropping down of the stigma, the stigma being washed away around that identity because people are more willing to be like oh yeah I opposed to in my era in the 80s being diagnosed with ADD - I don't it was like all the ADD kid yeah no one wanted to be associated with that and they'll be like yeah okay and I see it as a genuine you know a genuine attempt to kind of bridge that gap and share like no I understand where you're coming from you know so I do see that as a positive I know definitely.

Christina Keeble: I think one of the great things that I have seen in schools and particularly one of the schools that my children have attended in the past was this great series of lessons around basically different brain types within their thing you know and without singling any child out the teacher had this beautiful bunch of videos and things describing you know what it's like to be autistic or ADHD and I heard so many beautiful stories of other kids in the classroom going oh that's like me too and so all the kids who did have the labels and knew of it spoke up and then other kids who didn't you know they were like oh yeah I must be - it was just this beautiful you know acknowledgement and understanding of differences and also the focus was how do we be a good friend to each other when we have these differences which was lovely.

Lukas: Yeah there's language using in my daughter's classrooms around the rainbow brain type of scenario which is really lovely but they've really taken that on board and people like that definition is liberating you and celebrating you opposed to defining you and pushing you down.

Christina Keeble: Exactly and that idea of okay you know little Sarah or little Seth you know maybe they're struggling with something you know and they come alongside them as a friend and advocate for them and go hey you know they're you know and again looking at that rainbow brain and where they and it's just a lovely yeah a really lovely positive way to highlight and connect children with their with their differences and celebrate and support like you said.

Lukas: Yeah talk about support.

Christina Keeble: So I've got like this fantastic expert and it would be a missed opportunity to leverage on that to answer my wife's questions. The question she asked me the other day was from an ADHD standpoint like what goes on in your brain so if you've got a pinball machine...

Lukas: Yeah yeah yeah okay but I was hoping you could explain that neurotype a bit more clearer and define that.

Christina Keeble: Yeah okay so again I can only give my perspective just like you see so and I think for me the point that it really was highlighted was when I first started taking medication for ADHD and that was just before I turned 38 years old. And so I'd gone through my life thinking this is what everybody experiences. I took the medication and my brain went into what I call a massive slow down and I actually went to my husband and I said oh my gosh there's like nothing up there right now and he's like what do you mean and I'm like nothing's going in like there's nothing in my brain like there's just quiet like there's nothing going on and he's like yeah and I'm like is that what it's like. I was like do you have periods of time where nothing is happening up there and he goes yeah and I'm like so I didn't even know that people had space between thoughts or that there was quiet up there. So and this phenomenon I suppose this big brain slowed down as my brain must have habituated to the medication I started in my, the thinking and processing slowed right down that came back. I've got my processing speed back and thinking and I have busyness up there again but it took about two months and it just really highlighted to me how busy my brain is. There's never a moment of just quiet there's always multiple thinking going on. I've noticed when I'm feeling overloaded either like sensory wise if I haven't taken my medication in particular but also more stress the more stressed I experience things like that I get this fogginess and this inability to think clearly and make decisions clearly. And that's when I usually know I've not taken my tablets. When I take them I have this ability to it feels clear it's like the fog is lifted and I have this ability to multitask better. Certain things I'll never be good at is cooking and it hasn't, I'm still like the queen of burning everything including chicken nuggets. But there's just this constant flow of ideas and yeah I guess that's how I experience it and when I get asked a question or if I'm doing something there's always like I've learned to just stop and let someone know I'm just thinking give me a minute and I'm like looking at all the different angles all at the same time and trying to pick out so that I guess that's kind of the best way it's like a really busy road yeah.

Lukas: And from like a brain structure the science behind it what's going on for people with that neurotype is it like a heightened activation of a certain area is it the pathway of the brain that takes a detour what's going on up there?

Christina Keeble: Like this is not my strongest suit so I'll do my best to answer so when it comes to the brain and ADHD in particular what's happening there is and to be honest researchers aren't even 100% sure the way it all works and the way medication works but what my understanding is is that it's a lack of dopamine and the dopamine it can either be under produced or it's not hanging out around the brain long enough and what's what the different medications do and they all work differently on the receptors and the reuptake part between the communication side of the brain is that it helps the dopamine hang out longer by blocking some of the things that the reuptake things that suck it up is my professional answer. So so that's a part of so the main thing that ADHDers is it's about getting these dopamine hits and that's why things such as it can be connected I see a lot in in chats and things like that you know there's we're seeking things some are the thrill seekers and so that's where their dopamine hit comes from and and there's different ways that we get that and that's why strategies such as really communicating to an ADHD kid that they're doing a great job or you know really reinforcing through us the adults acknowledging you know their progress or how great they've done and and really shifting it to a positive focus is so effective because it you get that dopamine hit from things like that yeah.

Lukas: Let's get some operating on that dopamine based system opposed to an adrenaline-based system which needs to be that lever that we pull and the priority to to support our children is get them out of that adrenaline space. I love the illustration that Tom Hartman paints in his book on ADHD is like surviving as a hunter in a farmer's world it's about you know you want to chase the animal to get that stimulation that pulls in that focus the farmer is the one that's going to set their crop and be meticulous and happy to just do the math and weights yes and ADHDs probably is the hunter remnants going on.

Christina Keeble: A hundred percent yeah 100% and so switch gears to the other side of neurodivergence we're experiencing a lot of now is autism and the autism spectrum so from that standpoint you've obviously diagnosed as liberated by a diagnosis I'd like to say as an adult but you also went through that experience with your children. Is your experience supporting your children what sparked your interest in this field and set the wheels in motion?

Lukas: No actually so I actually fell into discovered autism I suppose this is back when I was at uni in the US which is where I'm originally from and I was going down I was studying psychology and I was going down the path and needed to do some volunteering to to make the application so I could get into the master's program there and I ended up volunteering at this amazing innovative preschool that was basically the ratio was 75 children with additional needs to 25 neurotypical children and it was this amazing venture to see and to show and highlight the benefits of really focusing on that because at the time in the US unfortunately was very segregated the education system and that's where I first came across working with neurodivergent children and I just fell in love with it and it totally switched my path. I actually ended up when I came to Australia doing teaching and I got a master's in special ed and I just knew as soon as I as soon as I had experience there I was like this is what I want to do for the rest of my life and I've taught at autism specific schools everywhere and also other specialist settings from early childhood through to transitioning to adulthood and I had this I guess it became a specialty a bit of a knack for neurodivergent children and I just seem to really get them and be able to to understand their communication in particular the highly sensory kids and those who you know don't have are non-speaking and now I think I understand why I understand them because I'm one of them. And when my children went along this journey I was I thought I was prepared I suppose I had an idea of the process there was no stigma in my mind I felt like I was pretty well equipped as best I could to support them however the actual going through the diagnostic process which it was it was more heartbreaking than I could imagine and it had nothing to do with my children it was the way that the system works and the language that the professionals used and the fact that as this was going on my perfect little child next to me was hearing these things and I'm trying to shield them from it and and sometimes the doctor's office was too small to exclude them so they didn't hear things and basically that's what led to me creating with my business partner Rebecca Perkins the National Peak Center because we want to change that experience but also that's what led me during this process I saw my childhood reflected back at me through my children yeah.

Christina Keeble: Yeah and what were the types of things that were being said and hopefully is evidence that we're moving past that now?

Lukas: Yeah there was everything was really focused on it was very deficit based like what they weren't achieving what they were failing at what the behavior problem was where you know in our house and at that time and even now you know we acknowledge that all children have challenges neurotypical or not you know no one gets through life without challenges it's what helps us grow and builds resilience.

Christina Keeble: resilience and everything but just it was so heavily focused on yeah on just accumulating all the negative what or what the medical developmental milestones and everything it was just so negative based and I remember a couple of times with my first I was more with my second I was more equipped to shield them from that but at times unfortunately my first child who went through the process heard things that I wish they hadn't and you know they were asking why were they asking that about me and me why are they saying these things and I could see because I'm blessed in the fact that both my children are hyper verbal and their language is has always been very developed very early and that you know I was concerned that she was attempting to understand things that I didn't want her to understand because they weren't accurate and so all of the things I was you know trying to manage that then also because of their self-esteem and you know I didn't want their self-esteem or their self-image to be tainted by by what they were hearing.

Lukas: Is that a common approach we're seeing in supporting and the turn of the corner we've turned is that okay we're actually considering them in the process now and yes and their voice even if they don't have a voice prioritizing the children in the middle of it?

Christina Keeble: Yeah definitely and I think you know I think one of the big things for example when when I sat back and thought you know how can we make this if we're going to create you know a place where we're going to be supporting children how can we make this better one of the things is we never we never talk about the child in front of the child like they're not there and you know if we are going to have these interactions we bring them to into it you know and we want their feedback and their input and we use language that doesn't dismiss challenges but that's not soul destroying if that makes sense and and it really is it is it's a slow shift but it is happening this shift towards acknowledging and starting to really respect and understand that these differences aren't a failing it's just a difference and it's helping not only you know at the moment or sorry in the past a lot of the onus has been put back on the child so the autistic child or the ADHD kid or the kid with a disability to meet society's norms and expectations where now you know what I know what we're trying to do in in my line of work but also I know a lot of other practitioners are as well is really helping you know neurotypical children understand differences but also helping the neurodivergent children understand themselves understand others and then trying to bridge that gap between them to facilitate you know communication and interaction and play and everything.

Lukas: And what's going on for a child I know there's a there's a spectrum and that's my next question yeah but for the listeners like what is autism let's start let's go simple.

Christina Keeble: Yeah it's simple but it's not okay that was that's the least simple question no but it is a spectrum and it's a it's a collection of characteristics that at the moment you know the way it's diagnosed is through the DSM 5 TR I believe just was released a couple months ago and unfortunately it does focus on these deficit-based things but basically the differences fall in a few areas including differences in communication differences in sensory processing so the information coming in differences in their their play and their interests and what I call that like their passions you know differences in intensity differences in the way that they do those things and yeah basically it's differences in processing and experiencing the world and then their responses to that.

Lukas: Yeah it is a it's a hard one I like my mind boggles when you try to like I try to articulate what it is for myself and I'm like yeah that is a very complex avenue to go down but you're you're using your the National Peak Center to support families yes with that with all different types of therapies that you're offering you're offering this like very holistic approach can you like it's quite exciting what you're doing there so can you share with our listeners what what you're doing with Peak and the impact it's having.

Christina Keeble: Yes so basically what we're trying to do at National Peak Center is like you said do like this holistic approach where everyone who practices with us or who works for us is what's called a neuro uses neurodivergent affirming practices and works from a strengths-based client-led model not from a deficit-based medicalized model and also that everyone who you know works with us everything that we do is grounded in the lived experience so both myself and my business partner we're neurodivergent and our children are we actually have multiple therapists who are neurodivergent and neurodivergent parents which is lovely and we have those who are who are not as well and it's really we're trying to create the culture of one where neurodiversity neurodivergencies are celebrated and that it's it's you know here it's it's a bonus if you come in and you tell me you're autistic in ADHD and it's like awesome you're part of us you're one of us you know and and I know yeah that's right it's it's we've we've had some we've actually it was really it was really sweet at the beginning when we had a couple of neurodivergent therapists and a couple who weren't the ones who weren't like they take this self-test and they're like oh man I really wanted to be like you know creating this culture around that and and also one that where we support the parents or carers in this as well I think this this is one of the features that makes us unique so we have a we've created this this role if you like it's called the support specialist and the the role of the support specialist is to kind of keep this over view of the family ecosystem or the support ecosystem of the individual because we do see clients across the life span so let's say you know a child comes and they start to see our OT well you know they they don't live in a bubble they may be the one with the NDIS plan but no you know there's usually a mom maybe a mom and a dad and a grandparent or a sibling all in the house and the support specialist role is just to make sure that everything else is ticking along okay because if we're going to support the child let's say with OT and at home you know mum or dad or whoever grandma is struggling with you know getting food on the table you know that's going to impact what's happening with the child and so we need to make sure that they receive the services that they need to be okay so they can support the child with with the plan so to speak or with the with the neurodivergency so yeah so we take this very holistic approach because anything that benefits their supports benefits the child.

Lukas: And I like the fact that it's the the extended for me I think about when I I was sent to OT I went to this the medical center and I did these weird exercises no one could tell me why what I was doing and why I had to do them and then I'd go home and I'll be like okay what is what's that what was that about and it was like it was it wasn't it was only for reason it was like hey do go do this thing come back okay it is nice to know why you're doing something but it's great to see like that and what what's your what's your goal for Peak what do you want to see it develop into.

Christina Keeble: So we want it to go nationwide right now Cranbourne is our first center and before the end of the year we're opening our second center in the west of Melbourne and we want it to be nationwide and we want this our the way we practice to be the standard and you know we want to basically shift the expectation away from behaviorist-based approaches we're this is a bit controversial but we're anti-ABA so shift away from.

Lukas: Can you break that down for us for the people.

Christina Keeble: Yes behavioral management yeah so basically ABA is applied behavior analysis is the technical term and behaviorist-based practices which ABA is is one that focuses on reward and consequences to changing behavior of an individual and there is in the past and actually still ABA a lot of the times is touted as the number one if not the only intervention for autistic children or children with behavior challenges as they say and the reason I'm so passionate against it is because I while I was never an ABA practitioner when before I had my family and went on this journey I was using behavior based practices professionally because that was the gold standard so to speak and through my journey with my kids and my fa

Christina Keeble: What I thought I was doing was correct. I was actually causing damage to my children and unintentionally induced trauma within them. And in hindsight now I see things in the past that I've done and wished that I'd had known of other ways to support the kids that I worked with because there definitely would have been trauma as a result of that.

Lukas: What's some of those examples of behavioral techniques that you know?

Christina Keeble: So at the most basic, at the most basic things like sticker charts. You know, if you do this you get a sticker, if you get five stickers you get the prize, right? That is very basic behavior. And then the thing is, the consequence is if they don't do the task or meet the demand then they don't receive the sticker which means eventually it takes away from them experiencing the prize. Now the thing about that is when we use these extrinsic or these things that are outside of ourselves like stickers and rewards to motivate children, what we do is we're doing them a disservice and we're teaching them to modify their behavior to do what we want and then they get this thing in return. The problem is research shows that with these approaches yes it changes behavior and depending on certain circumstances yes it can change it very quickly, but what it doesn't show is the cost and the toll that these practices take. So it doesn't allow the children to really tune in to their internal self, their internal idea of what is - sorry their internal moral compass about what is right and what is wrong because it moves it externally and it's all about the thing. If it's in relation to challenging or unsafe behaviors which is really a sign of distress from the child and we really should be looking at addressing why is this child experiencing this level of heightened distress in their nervous system, it doesn't look at any of that. It's basically just trying to change what they do. It only works when the threat - so the person who gives the reward or the consequence which again we're not allowed to use negative consequences in the education system but missing out is a negative consequence - it's only effective when that is present and it's all around motivators and finding a strong enough motivator and things. And the reality is what I've learned is relationship based practices are the way to go because they are trauma informed and there is nothing stronger than a positive safe and trusting relationship between you and a child and not only does that support their development but also it allows them to tune in and develop this internal moral compass and follow and learn that way.

Lukas: Yeah and that's where my passion lies is in creating those environments where the child can navigate them and set their own goals and set their achievement. I talk a lot to educators about you know we set up the obstacle course and now everyone does it or a child's coming up against a bit of a challenge and we jump in and we're like pull with your arms push with your legs. So their fulfillment is based on themselves achieving what you've set for them and they get in this external gratification type of mode where it's like hey give me the confirmation that I'm good hey give me my achievement opposed to hey they set the goal they might not be able to even like classic ones like climb a tree they might not be able to get up there yeah but if we can support them and say hey you can't get there yet yeah you're gonna get the bigger reward in the end because they're gonna set their own goal that's right really internalize hey I'm the master of my own surrounding it is up to me to get joy and fulfillment around my environment which then in turn sets that intrinsic motivation to explore and experience overcome sensory processing challenges and then activate their wonderment or their self value at the core of who they are.

Christina Keeble: And I love that that power of yet you know that's so when kids get that it's so powerful that whole - I always connect it to growth mindset and it's such a powerful such a tiny shift sometimes but that has such a huge positive difference and what you were doing there with like you know jumping in and even just you modeling you know how to do it and then supporting by breaking it down so they can do it you know that modeling and that you know facilitates that trust in that you know you're a safe person to come to. And I know at the moment you know I'm thinking really little right but if we're taking these if we're using and implementing these strategies now and really this becomes the child's foundation as the child grows and pushes into adolescence which is a really risky period for children you know what do all parents want we want the children to come to us when they're in a risky situation right so doing these strategies now when they're little gets that trust and shows them you know what I can turn to mom or dad when I need support because they've always been there even when things have been tough and equally I have the capacity to solve this problem for myself and if I can't I know who I go to exactly as opposed to I don't know what I'm doing who's the closest people around me that I want approval from it's my peers exactly challenging exactly.

Lukas: And that whole you know along the same path which so the reason I talk about what I do is because I've made all the mistakes connected to what I'm talking about you know so I used to use these approaches that were very much only reinforcing for example with my attention when the kids were doing what I wanted them to do and that classic which goes back to behavior stuff ignoring or not paying attention to undesired behaviors. Now again on this shift from childhood to adolescence you know I don't want the pattern to be that my children only see me paying attention to them when they're doing what I want because when they're in those risk-taking situations and they're unable to solve it I want them to seek me out so you know and that's again back to that relationship-based modeling and having this open communication and support with them if that makes sense yeah and equally having the confidence to let your child fail.

Christina Keeble: Oh yeah definitely it's essential yeah we can have them come to us but essentially you've got to get some dust on the knees absolutely sometimes and you've got to be self-aware and confident enough to dust yourself off keep going that's right and but you know I love that definition of trauma is it could be perceived as anything that takes away your basic needs yeah so that broadens the scope of trauma quite a lot but equally you need to overcome those smaller level of trauma you basically you know like you know falling over and hurting your knee okay you're not in for a moment there you're not feeling like you're in a safe and secure environment but does the action reflect the environment and is it suitable for that environment yes so therefore you're gonna get one of those little achievement badges each time it builds up exactly exactly and that facilitates that resilience and you know through multiple experiences of that and I think it's important also for our children to see us fail and to make mistakes and model how to come back from that through our interactions with them and with other you know adults in their lives I think that's a really yeah it's powerful.

Lukas: Like my daughter's just turned eight so the cognitive competency of understanding stories and reflections is quite strong and when we're talking about learnings and me sharing stories of like hey yeah I'll tell you a time when I failed yeah it was magnificent terrible so it's really over opening up that. To shift gears a bit I'm talking to a lot of adults now around neurodivergence as an adult one we come from like the 80s 90s where there wasn't that understanding we're moving to an era where there is and then there's more resources as an adult to understand what's your advice and recommendations for adults that think they might be neurodivergent in some way what's your advice to them?

Christina Keeble: Basically you know basically looking to other neurodivergent adults and reading or listening or you know seeking out their stories and their journeys and one of the biggest things I think that is a challenge I know it was a challenge for me on my journey to fully understanding or getting to that point where I go

Christina Keeble: You know what I need to actually explore this if I am neurodivergent or not and my barrier was really around the fact that the masking that I'd done for so long was I didn't even have to think about it so with masking I mean suppressing my true self so to speak to fit in and a lot of that goes back to and I have very early memories of being in prep and watching other kids play and really working hard to copy them and mimic them so I didn't stand out and this continued through school and I think as I started to read other stories of on social media or books or whatever one of the ones I turned to was the spectrum women's magazine online obviously coming as a woman that one had a lot of stories that I could relate to and going okay wait a minute this is my story you know parts of this are my story too and then really allowing myself to figure out what is my authentic self you know when I let go of the mask and it's something that I'm still doing four years on but I think listening to those who've gone through the journey can be helpful and looking for the lived experience there.

Lukas: And what's your advice for people that think that being diagnosed and taking maybe a medicated route that they're gonna lose their power or lose who they are well also not just as an adult there's so many families going through this real struggle with medicating their children and saying well if I medicate them is it going to take away from who they are am I breaking them yeah.

Christina Keeble: No so actually I love talking about this. A couple of things so when we think in particular about children but any age child teen adult you know if all of a sudden your doctor came to you and said okay you've developed diabetes and you now need to take insulin you wouldn't hesitate you'd be like yes give me the needle we're gonna inject this every day to support my child or to support myself you know because I'd like to continue to live that kind of thing and when we look at there's a lot of stigma around medication in particular with ADHD because a lot of them are stimulants and there is just this really strong stigma but it's a similar thing in that you know the brain for whatever reason is either under producing or it's not hanging out enough and if our brain is missing it then there should be no shame in providing it to support ourselves to live our best life and unfortunately the statistics around the lifespan of I know autistic individuals in particular is not very pretty and a lot of ADHDers I know self-medicate in other ways through addiction through alcohol I had a period of using alcohol to cope and you know to take the medication I think is a much much more tendency to be the risk takers that as well so risk takers not just I'm not talking about going to jump out of a plane I'm talking about risk taking in relationships risk taking in day-to-day activities and lack of the stewardship of your life.

Lukas: Yeah no 100 and I know through my journey I actually took the medication before I medicated my kids just the way it all played out I had about six months before we attempted the medication for my children and so it gave me a good insight I started I think at the beginning I was talking about how my brain did this massive slow down and one of the first thoughts I remember having was wow I wish I'd had this sooner and it was thinking about how much easier certain things in my life would have been with that especially around learning and all of that and then the other thing so just I guess so people understand when I started my ADHD meds I was already on a very low dose antidepressant for anxiety because I've always struggled with anxiety and I started the medication it worked with by day three it was you know really kicking in and I noticed a positive unexpected side effect was that my anxiety was gone now this isn't everybody's story but this is mine and I felt like I had this hole in my stomach like a fist-sized hole and I realized that's where my anxiety sat in my body and I spoke to my psychiatrist and I said you know should I stop now taking my antidepressant and he goes no he goes it's working he goes and for some the combination is what in the chemistry is what the brain needs and I've continued to take it and I've still four years later it relieves my anxiety which has been a big factor and especially in relation to RSD and then contributing to your relationship creativity.

Christina Keeble: And it's this it's this cumulative snowball effect isn't it exactly you're taking less risk you're more aware of yourself your concentration is just one tiny aspect of it or children with autistic children there's a lot of focus on sensory processing but there's just one little component of the bigger picture it is and so at the time when I started taking it we were a family in crisis and had been for a good four years nobody could help us we were they just kept saying we're a tricky family which we are and I realized I had to be the one to do it and the medication so the diagnosis combined with the medication is what allowed me to get to a place where I was okay and coping and then could put in strategies to then support our family and now thankfully we are at a crisis and I know if it wasn't for the medication that wouldn't have happened and the diagnosis was the number one best thing I've done for my mental health ever unexpectedly it's brilliant.

Lukas: To change it up I want to get some advice from you for our listeners sure how do we best support the neurodivergent children in our world I know it's a big spectrum and all children are different but what's your wonder one number one recommendation for interacting and caring for neurodivergent children.

Christina Keeble: Yep I always think starting where the child is at so connecting with them and the way for example going down when you break down an interaction or connection even observing where the child's energy level is at you know if they're a child that's quite reserved and quite quite lower energy come in at that space so meet them where they're at otherwise you know if you have very excited energy you might you know they're very sensitive to that they might scare them and vice versa if you can't have a kid that's really high energy you're not up here in really high energy meet them there and match them and then you know focus on connecting with them the way they want to and what they enjoy and you know following their lead from there forward and I guess the other big one is respecting their nose if they have an indication that something is too much or the interaction needs to end you know respect that and then you know you can always attempt to reconnect later.

Lukas: Yeah that's brilliant and where can people find out more about your approach the national peak center your research books and people that just want to be educated more on the topic.

Christina Keeble: Yeah so my website is my name so it's christinakeeble.com and I have links to national peak center and peak center just so you know is P E K E not P E like the mountain but P E K E center yeah so we're on social media we're on facebook and instagram and you know I support through talks you know through doing podcasts like this seminars workshops but I also do one-on-one consults for families carers and adults neurodivergent adults themselves and all of that information can be found on my website.

Lukas: Excellent and we'll put the all the links in the show notes so people can just click on there get straight there not get distracted on the way like this guy would and get to where you need to go straight away to wrap up today I just want to commend you on your achievement especially from that family standpoint it's easy to get the accolades and you've done an amazing job with that the peak center however to hear you take the step you be brave be bold challenged get uncomfortable for the sake of your family and demonstrate that it's got to be one of the biggest achievements anyone could be blessed with so well done for overcoming your own challenges and thank you for sharing your wisdom your message and I look forward to learning more and on my journey and how we can support more children neurodivergent children through play through exploration.

Christina Keeble: Thank you and thank you so much for the opportunity to share and that you provide this awesome platform to do that so thank you so much it's much appreciated.

Lukas: Thank you.