Raising Resilient Tweens

Lukas: Where did you like to play as a child? I ask this question a lot because childhood memories shape us into the people we become. Welcome to Play It Forward, a Wearthy podcast. I'm your host, Lukas Ritson. Thanks so much for joining me.

I talk a lot about play. I'm a dad, I'm a husband, I'm an educator, and I'm a playground designer. So I wanted to gather some of my favorite people who are advocates of children and nature and create a space to have an honest conversation about getting more kids outside. The power of play is very often underestimated, and I think we all need a little more play in our lives.

Michelle is a renowned author, and most importantly, she's a confidant to me and my kids. She's a good friend and such a great encourager. She's helping parents to navigate the challenges of raising tweens. Her engaging personality, wealth of knowledge has helped her become a trusted voice in the parenting community through her books, speaking engagements, and podcasts. Michelle's empowered parents with practical advice — and I have to accentuate it's practical advice — insights in fostering resilience in children.

Michelle's journey into the world of educating parents began with her experience as a mom and experiencing all the ups and downs and roller coaster. And the optimism that you have about circumstance is inspiring, and I check in with that all the time. Drawing on her personal journey, she's made it her mission to share her learnings. And she has penned several acclaimed books on parenting tweens — you probably get a sneak peek behind up on my bookshelf, it's a go-to — and is hosting the very popular Resilient Kids Conference. It's touring Australia. I've heard great feedback from the sector, early childhood educators and parents alike. I've had many parents DM me as well in my community being like, "When's it on? Do you get tickets?"

And she's captivated audiences at this conference by sharing her wisdom with other names in the sector, which is your like posse of parenting as you could call it. And a big Wearthy welcome to the Play It Forward studio. Thanks for joining us, Michelle.

Michelle: Oh, it's always a good day when I get to talk to you, Lucas. This is fun. A good time.

Lukas: Absolutely. Let's jump straight into it. As our listeners know, I always ask where you played as a child, but this is your round two on Play It Forward. So where did you play as a tween?

Michelle: As a tween, I used to go to my school after hours and jump the fence and play on the playgrounds and in the schoolyard when I wasn't supposed to be there. And it felt like so much more fun than playing there at lunchtime.

Lukas: Absolutely. The rebel at heart, the disruptor. I love it. A question I asked a previous guest in the last episode was how would you describe your personality traits when you're immersed in play at that age?

Michelle: Disruptor. I would do anything that I was not allowed to do when adults were watching. So if there was something really high that I was not supposed to climb on, I would climb on it. If there was a flip or a jump or a cartwheel that I was not allowed to do in gymnastics, I would try and do it behind the scenes. So yeah, that was me.

Lukas: And in addition to that, what was your communication style?

Michelle: Organizer, I think. Yeah, if there was something to be bossed around, even my toys, that would be me. I would be the one. Yeah, so the disruptive organizer. Oh, that sounds horrible, doesn't it? But I was always looking after people too. I think I was making sure everyone was taken care of.

Lukas: And the caring disruptor. Oh, that sounds good. Let's lead with caring. Leave that caring first. And it's interesting how you can think back to your personality trait as a child and how that developed as your character. And then it's so easily transferred into what you sit down to do daily within your work, within your communication with colleagues, as your mission. So to relate how play as a child actually eventuates in your life — like my work is really my play now. I always had a mission as a kid, like I had a little business project always going on the side, and my friends became my like little employees in some way. You know, it's just how it rolled out.

Michelle: Disruptive organizer, like entrepreneurial organizer. And if we flash forward to the Resilient Kids Conference, you're not taking the traditional modes of education. It's not a formalized course. It's a conversation, it's getting people in the room. So disruptive organization is represented there as well.

Lukas: That just makes me feel so vulnerable, Lucas. You just stripped it all bare for me there. But it's a good place to start. It's a good place to start. So true.

And then where does that swing to those attributes happen based on our emotional state as well? So when you're feeling a bit overwhelmed, do you swing more into the organizer to make sense of it, or do you want to get more disruptive and throw the hand grenade?

Michelle: Oh my gosh, this is like therapy!

Lukas: Well, moving on. I don't want to have to send your bill. I mentioned tweens in the intro, and I've got to be upfront with our listeners right now — we're going to talk about tweens. Because when you have an opportunity to have a conversation with Michelle Mitchell about tweens and I have a 10-year-old as of next week... wow, I'm ready to glean off this one and reference it so many times.

And as I discussed before we started recording, focusing so much on the early years — yeah, it's just my wheelhouse, and that lever seems to be pulled from that early childhood approach. This is a surprise. It's been a bit of a shock of that change. And for a 10-year-old, am I... no, this is too early.

Michelle: Yeah. We've got such a strong narrative around the early years and a strong narrative around the teenage years. I mean, who hasn't heard about the pruning of the teenage brain and the first thousand days of life? And we've got the narrative right around that. But then you get to 8, 9, 10, and the story gets a bit weaker. And I don't think parents really understand what's going on internally in kids' lives at this age.

And even this week, I've spoken to four moms whose kids have hit about 11, and they're saying to me, "Michelle, 11 is hard. And I was not expecting this. I've got my daughter wanting to wear a push-up bra. I've got text messages... like, this is happening way too young. I wasn't expecting this level of conversation."

And I don't think they realize that adolescence actually starts a lot earlier than they were anticipating. That the adrenal androgens that drive the changes that are kickstarting puberty have already begun in their child. And they're looking for pubic hair, and they're looking for these massive external growth spurts and changes. And yes, they come, and in some kids they're coming around 10, 11, 12. But they're coming at a time where our kids are still sitting on our lap and still wanting a hug goodnight.

And so it becomes a very mixed message and very confusing narrative for parents. And at the same time, our kids are wanting more space and maybe slamming the door occasionally. And we're interpreting that as naughty behavior rather than, "Oh, these are the first signs of change. Oh, this is the time where I've got to recognize that the ship's turning and my kid's needing something different from me right now. And I've got to literally open the door for a new story, a new chapter in our family, and a new way of doing things here."

Lukas: So would you say it's a new type of relationship?

Michelle: I think it is. And I think it's a time where we've got to almost hold a child in one hand and begin to look at the edge of the teenage years. We've got to be able to straddle both.

Lukas: And what are the challenges you see that are triggering for the parents to get over and step into that zone?

Michelle: I think we see our kids as children, and I think we struggle to let go of them as our little kids. And I think our kids also — if we flip that experience — they know that we love them as little kids. But when they start to feel those first feelings of wanting to push away from us, they wonder if we are going to love them as their independent, moving, growing self.

And we might say to them things like, "Never become a teenager," or, "See how your big brother's behaving? Don't ever turn into that." Yeah. And the fear for them is, "Will you love me if I grow and change?" And that is a really big fear for a lot of kids that I speak to in primary school, in grade five and six. They want to stay little forever. And it's motivated by the desire to stay connected to us as their parents. But they need to know that our love will grow and change with them.

Lukas: And the phrase springs to mind, "Oh, be daddy's little... you'll always be my little girl," or, "You'll always be my little boy," or things along those lines that are like, "What?" But then you're saying, "I'm growing up so quick." Which one is it?

Michelle: Yeah. Well, "Don't ever grow up." I mean, what's that saying to our kids? And then we say, when they hit teens, "Act like an adult, make good choices."

Lukas: Where is it? Would it be accurate to say it's that gray area, the tween, between childhood and the teens?

Michelle: My own son said it was the most confusing time of all his life. He said the teenage years were really clear for him. He said they were just a blur of big emotion, but it was a really clear lot of big emotion. But the tween years for him — he woke up a lot of days wondering what was wrong with us and why we had changed.

And for him, it felt like a very much rejecting time for him. When he was 11, he grew from size eight men's shoes to size 12 men's shoes in under a year. So he had a massive growth spurt. I remember him erupting in emotion at times. I remember him standing up to my husband for the first time in his life. And it was almost like, "Hear my man's voice. Hear me roar."

And I think my husband was like, "Who the heck do you think you are, kid? Like, pick up your socks and shut up." It was like these two male egos just standing at each other. And my son was almost 6 foot, but he was 11 years old. And to watch that formation of this child trying to act like a man with all the immaturity in the world, really, but trying so desperately to be heard as an adult in this child's body was quite the sight to behold.

And my husband and I, looking at him going, "What is he trying to be?" You know? But it's very different than working with a 15-year-old who is clearly coming into his own right as an adult. And you have to treat them so tenderly when they're 11. And the respect and the care that I even have to give kids within our grade five and six classroom when they're reaching towards those teenage years, but they're clearly so childlike. And their ego and their sense of self is so fragile.

And when they ask a question that makes them vulnerable and overexposed — and is clearly so, to use a better word, silly — you know, it overexposes them. Yet you have to wrap them in such a delicate way to bring safety around the vulnerabilities at this age.

Lukas: And how do we go about that as parents? Yeah, some practical little tips for me. Because I've had the slammed door recently, and I was... yeah, what's that? I said to my wife, "Was that what I think that was?"

Michelle: There's two things that are coming to my mind for some reason, Lucas. So let me take them separately. And this is just maybe intuitively I want to go there.

But I'm imagining kids socially at this age where they're really, like, they're goofy and they put their foot in it. And as adults, you can leave them hanging a little bit, or you can almost feel so embarrassed that you sort of shove them to the side.

I think we have such a responsibility as adults when we're in social environments to almost rescue them a little bit. And to laugh at their jokes, to help pad it a little bit, to include them in the conversations. And just to help sort of make them a part of the group. Because sometimes they want to join in conversations, yet they go too far, they overexpose themselves, they share things that are a bit inappropriate, and their jokes don't land. So that's one thing that's coming to my mind.

I think the second thing that's coming to my mind is that the moment they stand up to us and they go too far — and it doesn't take tweens long to feel that sense of sometimes guilt, but then shame — "I hurt my parents." And sometimes then they storm off into their room and they slam the door.

The most beautiful, gracious thing we can do is just give it a minute. When they're ready, come in and have the conversation that says, "You know, you and I have the most beautiful relationship. And I don't think that we've had many moments where you felt that I've done anything deliberately to hurt you. You and I have got something really special."

"But as you grow and as you change, there's going to be moments where you feel like I've really done the wrong thing by you. And I think it's really important right now that you know that that's actually not because I've changed — it's because you're growing and changing. And you've got to grow and change. And I want you to know that I'm totally good for that."

"And in those moments where you need to grow and change, you're going to look at me and go, 'You are so unfair. You've done the wrong thing by me. I hate you today.' I want you and me to be able to look at each other and go, 'This is one of those moments.'"

And I've even heard that maybe parents can make up a code word that goes, "This is one of those moments." And you and I are going to have a secret code word that goes, "Hey, this is a growing up feeling. This isn't actually about us. You and I are okay. This is a moment that's called growing up."

And I think those moments you can have with a tween, and they'll actually even remember that when they're 13 and 14 and 15 and 16 and 19 and 21.

Lukas: Yeah, especially if you get photos. No... Do you think we may be in a bit of a habit of being too critical in holding these emotional responses into higher esteem? And it's like, "Something we've got to solve for, I've got to address this now." And it's that timeline shrinking that can be detrimental instead of like, "Okay, this is going to happen for a long time. We're in it together."

Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. I think we can catastrophize things and we can put fire on the flames rather than saying, "Yeah, I'm going to wait out here and you come to me when you've calmed down. That's clearly not okay. But we're just going to give this thing a minute."

And I think the first time things happen, we can go, "This is an emergency," rather than, "Ah, the car door just slammed. Ah, looks like a teenager's on the horizon." Because I say to moms, there's plenty more where that came from, okay? This is not the full stop.

Because parents say, "They're acting like a teenager already." I'm like, "Nah, give them a few more years and you might really see some things surface." And in the light and the scope of them growing up, probably what you're seeing now between 8 and 12 is pretty mild. But it feels like a big deal because it's the first time we've seen it.

Lukas: Yeah, absolutely. And I've been in this recently, so I completely get that as well. There's so many scenarios. A proud moment that I had — and I thought of you in it — is my daughter found out that she didn't get the teacher she wanted, wasn't with the group, and there was an emotional response.

And just, I like to encourage people to think of the emotional response just as the bleeding to the injury. You don't have to address what caused the cut — not just chuck a bandage on it. Compliance is not a win, if you will.

And there was a big emotional response off to the room, and then I went into the room a little bit. "So don't even talk. I don't want any talk." I said, "I'm not here to talk. I just want to be with you. And I can come in if I won't talk." She's like, "Fine." Emotional preferences are beautiful.

And then I was like, "I like laying on the floor as well. So I'll just lay on the floor with you." She's like, "Fine." So we just laid on the floor and she was just upset.

And then she said, "I know it's going to be okay. I know there's just friends I haven't met yet. But I'm just really upset right now."

Michelle: That's great. And I was like, "Oh," for all of those slamming doors and all the times you get it wrong, I just reminded to go, "Okay, that one was... that was evidence of some good return." The ratio can seem a bit out of whack as well, can't it?

Well, they're so heightened at this age without all the skills to handle it. And a lot of parents of teenagers have actually told me that it's actually gotten easier as their kids have gotten older. Because when they first get all this rush of emotions, it can be a lot of emotion without the skill. And as they get older, they do gain more skill. So it's a really interesting one, this, especially 11 to 12 when they just get hit a little bit harder with all those emotions.

That laying on the floor position is a beautiful position to talk to tweens from, because it's a great position to regulate from. And you're both in a position where you're kind of de-powered. So you're both in that neutral position. It's perfect with tweens. So you... yeah, thank you. Take that, Dad. Well done.

Lukas: I'm sitting up taller now. Only to be like, "I've got this sorted out." And next time just the floor. That doesn't even... Yeah, all that time. I'm ready for next time.

Michelle: Won't work! But that's a part of the parenting thing as well, isn't it? Absolutely.

Lukas: Do you think there's an impact on our tweens around the negative connotation of teens and the language that parents use and say, "Oh, you wait till you're a teenager. Oh, you wait. You've got it coming."?

Michelle: I might... yeah. That's a lot of pressure for a young person to hear. I surveyed 1,600 parents, and I think it was 76% of them said that they were fearful of the teenage years. So there's the energy they're carrying, the anticipation they're carrying — that the years to come are going to be hectic and heavy duty rather than something that they're equipped to navigate, that there's going to be some joy and enjoyment with it.

And there's often the language that we're using around, "Don't grow up, don't give me a hard time." I think kids also feel like those teenage years are going to be difficult. So there's at the end of grade six here in Queensland, because high school starts in grade seven, there's that, "You're not going to be able to get away with that in high school."

And then there's all that kind of connotation around, "Friendships are going to be more difficult, and there's more bullies in high school." And I think there's a real talk-up and catastrophizing of what it means to transition into high school and become a teenager.

Lukas: And you would say that the setup and the skills you learn in tweens, in the trenches with your tweens, are the ones that help you get through the teens?

Michelle: Oh, 100%. And you learn in the shore, you know, while you're playing near the shoreline, not out in the depths of the sea. And you can think of the tween years like that — it's like being in the shallows, it's like riding the smaller waves rather than the big surf.

And so you get to teach kids these life skills while they're still in reach. They still have one hand next to you. They're still within this beautiful space. They don't want to let go of you.

And I think that's the definitive thing about tweens — is they still want to do everything with you. When you talk to most parents of tweens, they'll tell you they're number one exhausted because their kids want to spend all the time in the world with them. "What do you want to do on the weekend?" "Everything with you." And dads are like, "Oh, I'm just exhausted."

Whereas teenagers — what do they want to do? Everything with their friends. That's the key difference.

Lukas: Yeah, I'm very motivated by the number of summers I've got with my daughter. So we love summer, we love hanging out and those long periods of time. And I'm like, "Well, there's maybe six before she doesn't want to do that anymore."

Michelle: Yeah, it changes. But the most beautiful thing about 8 to 12-year-olds is they light up when you say, "Do you want to go and get an ice cream or a coffee?" And I'm like, the biggest message I want to tell parents is, "Buy the ice cream. Go and just give them stuff and play and do all that fun stuff with them now."

Because that moment will pass, and they actually just want to spend so much time with you. And this moment — you won't get this moment forever.

Lukas: I've got to hang up and go spend time with my daughter now. Bye! That wasn't very articulate. Maybe I can say that part again. But like, yeah...

Michelle: There's one of my friends that every time I talk to her about her daughter, I'm always saying to her at the end of my text message, "Go get ice cream. Because these years will pass so quickly."

And so when you think about buying them ice cream, taking them out after school, having fun on the weekend — I'm like, go and do it. Because these are the years to do it. They won't want to do it with you forever. They're going to be going and hanging out with their friends and getting their part-time jobs, and they will have their own schedule soon. But right now, they're on your time.

Lukas: You can't overinvest in enthusiasm. But also, the communication skill is there with a certain amount of depth. It's like a... it's just switched that lens for me completely just in that comment. Because it is like such this really beautiful time to really focus on. That's really cool. I like that.

When we look at relationships — traditional parent-kid relationship or even educator-children-caregiver relationships from the early years — generally it's parent-led, senior-led. Yeah, there's a lot of direction and teaching. What is that personality trait or archetype that a parent can embody for those tween years within a relationship?

Michelle: Yeah, now you hear about, "Okay, you need to be the rule setter when... you need to be the nurturer from one to two, you need to be the rule setter from two to five." Yeah, for the tweens, what would you say that attribute and heart to bring to relationship is?

I think the more autonomy you can give a tween, the better. Especially around their body. This is the time where I think they need to be making as many choices around their body as possible. And their relationship with their body is changing.

And I think parents are so used to making decisions about what their kids wear, what their kids' hair looks like, even doing their kids' hair in the morning. One dad said to me, he was so used to doing his son's hair every morning. He took great pride in it. It had a certain swirl at the front, and that was the way it was.

And his son came out of the bathroom and had changed his hair up. And his dad said, "What's with your hair, mate?" And he goes, "No offense, Dad, but it's my hair."

And that is classic tween behavior. And his dad goes, "Well, do I make him do his hair the way I do it, or do I let him do his own hair?" I said, "You let him do his own hair." I said, "Because you fast forward 10 years — do you want him to be living your dreams or his own?" Like, it starts with them having choice, autonomy, and ownership in the smallest of things like that.

And even things like when they shut the door to get changed — you'd be surprised how many families are just so used to just walking in and out of their kids' rooms whenever they want to when they're younger. But there comes this time where kids start to stamp their independence over their spaces in their house and their life. And we're not talking about tech, but we're talking about just those areas of their kids' lives where they start to say, "Hey, I want to own this."

And I think it's really important we start to listen to our kids' voice when they rise up and say, "Hey, this is my body, my space, my boundaries. This is what I want."

Lukas: What are some techniques and language parents can use to support their child in that scenario if maybe they want to wear something that's maybe not appropriate for the age or not aligned with the family's values? How do you navigate that respectfully?

Michelle: Yeah, I've had a few conversations with moms just this week about that. Especially around the concept of maybe blending beauty and sexy — like with girls — and girls not really understanding that that's not appropriate for their age or appropriate for the environment. And they're 11, and they're perhaps wanting to wear swimsuits that are too skimpy or short tops or skirts.

And it's really difficult to explain that sexy piece to a child who doesn't have the perspective-taking to see through the lens of an unsafe adult. So it's really difficult to go there and have that full conversation with them.

For some girls, they do have the ability to see that and talk about how some people might want to use sex to hurt a child. And so it is a little bit easier to say to them, "You don't walk through the world assuming the best of everyone. And so there are environments where it's actually really important to work through the world wisely with how you dress yourself."

And there's environments where it's actually really important that we dress appropriately for the environment. That doesn't ever mean there's ever a time where it's okay for someone to take or hurt someone else, to take sex from someone. And you can unpack that with a 12-year-old maybe.

But I think there are still times where rules and boundaries are a parent's decision, not a child's decision. And I think for every home, you have to work out what's a parent decision and what's a child's decision. And I think when it comes to clothing, for appropriateness of clothing, I think you can still safely put that in "that's a parent's decision" when it comes to an 8 to 12-year-old. It's harder when they've got their own money and they're mail-ordering bikinis and getting them delivered to the door when they're 15. It's harder.

Lukas: Well, we'll get you back for the third episode when we hit that. That's a difference between tweens and teens. Yes. And however, setting yourself up for success in these more sexually-oriented conversations — as in teams — yeah. And I'm finding myself in that stage now where it's between conversation and context and cognitive capability. That's it. Awareness. Absolutely.

So how do you start having those conversations around sex and everything now for those 10-year-olds?

Michelle: Okay, let's get really specific on that question. Because that's a really big question. Let me answer... So let's drill that down.

Lukas: So how do we start? So strip all that... Oh yeah. So how do we start, initiate that conversation around sex without going to 10 on the sex scale, but just introducing it into conversation?

Michelle: Yeah. First of all, we want sex to be something that's not to be feared for kids. That they understand that it's something that is a healthy, normal, pleasurable part of adult relationships. And that it comes into our conversations in a very natural way. And that it's something that they can have an ongoing early-and-often discussion with us about. So it's not something that's just like a one-off thing that they talk about, but it's like this taboo topic.

So I think it needs to sort of — these days particularly, not like when we were growing up — but it needs to weave into our conversations all the time as naturally as possible. So I think that baseline: that it's something that's meant to be a pleasurable part of their lives in the future, but also has the potential to be harmful if it's in the wrong hands and can really do damage to them.

And I guess the conversation that is around that is that there are people in the world that would want to use sex to hurt kids. And that's the conversation about unsafe people. And that's the conversation that comes into play when it comes to being online. And that's the conversation about pedophiles. And that is the edge of this conversation about clothing, about the imagery they see online, about this blend between beauty and sexy.

Lukas: And a good place to start would be to just have those conversations about — what was the wording? — "unsafe people" is what I call it.

Michelle: Yeah. And then if you ever hear that word "pedophile" or "pedo," which they might hear at school, you say, "That's the word that the police give a special type of criminal who might want to use sex to hurt a kid."

And the way that someone might want to use sex to hurt a kid is they might want to show a child a picture about sex, or talk to a child about sex in a way that's inappropriate. Because it's illegal to talk to a child about sex in a way that makes a child feel uncomfortable, or show a child a video about sex, or touch a child's private parts. And you can unpack that as a journey.

Lukas: It's like — not okay, you're going to have "the birds and the bees" talk and it's all done.

Michelle: Not in the same talk. Because birds and bees is meant to be a beautiful thing. It's meant to be something that's attached to life and beautiful experiences and pleasure in relationships. And sexual feelings are meant to be a beautiful conversation. And I like to think that we're different conversations.

Lukas: Yeah, so unless they ask the question and it goes there...

Michelle: And you know, unfortunately, there's some kids that, after you have that conversation, they then ask about pornography. And then they say something like, "Pornography has happened to me." So it can lead — one thing can lead to another. And very sadly, that is some kids' experience.

Lukas: And how do parents support or educate their children on navigating it within a social group? Because for me, I visualize safe people and unsafe people — we generally think about people outside our circle. But in this age group of discovery and inquiry and technology making everything accessible, and the hypothetical of a friend showing something out of inquiry, how do you encourage your child to navigate that?

Michelle: The stats around that are very clear — it's much more likely to come from someone that is in their circle of knowing. Even their peers is more common. So I think it's just as simple a conversation as that — is that it is more likely to come from there.

I think kids need to be empowered to know how to say no, to spot early warning signs of being manipulated, and to obviously have open lines of trusted adults. To know what the criteria of a trusted adult is and to be able to speak up as soon as they possibly can to be able to protect themselves.

And I think particularly with tweens, who are maybe starting to have a bit more extended time away from their trusted adults — to be able to talk about the protocol for sleepovers. And even think through things about where they get changed when they're staying at friends' houses, even if they're not sleeping over. Thinking through how they just take care of their bodies when they're away from their families. Those conversations are really important at this age.

Lukas: Yeah, and once again, informing those teen years where they are having a whole lot more independence.

Michelle: Absolutely. And that's nice... Sorry, go on.

I just think this age between 8 and 12, they're more naive. And it is the age where they may be more likely to run into trouble because they are more likely to, I guess, with technology, get taken advantage of.

The amount... like, when teenagers make, I guess, errors online, they know they're making those errors. When tweens make errors online, they are sometimes so ignorant, blasé, or naive to the consequences of them. When they look at things, they don't really often know what they're looking at. When a teenager looks at things, they know what they're looking at. They can feel pressured into looking at it — there can be all sorts of reasons. But the innocence of tweens makes it so much more dangerous, to me.

Lukas: And how do we as parents and caretakers create that dialogue and safe place for those conversations to happen? It's very easy to tell your child, "You can talk to me about anything." Do you have some techniques around creating that muscle?

Michelle: Yeah. Okay. I think it's really important for parents to understand that kids are changing in five ways — not just physically, but socially, emotionally, cognitively, and sexually. And the problem is those five areas of development don't all happen at the same pace at the same time.

And so we might see our kids developing, I guess, socially, emotionally, but we don't see the pace of sexual development. Or we don't often maybe understand where their cognitive development is or maybe don't have the skills to take it into account.

And I guess what I'm saying there is there can be accelerated development in one area and then a lapse in development in other areas. So our kids can develop sexually, or their curiosity can be really developing sexually, and we can be not aware of it if we don't really keep our eyes on it.

And kids can go chasing information if we're not really aware of these areas. And even cognitively, kids cannot be understanding what they're chasing. So they can have all the feels, but they don't have the understanding cognitively to even process what they're seeing.

So we become this incredible gap-filler in our kids' lives. And we have to stay so close to them at this age — like, so close. We've got to consider ourselves like glue to them. Because they have so many gaps that it is impossible for them to even realize or have any ability, I guess, to process a lot of this themselves. I don't think we can put the onus on them to give them the strategies because I don't think they have the ability to. I really don't.

Lukas: So to answer your question, which was — throw it at me again. What strategies do you have to create that relationship of dialogue? Yeah. So instead of saying, "You can talk to me about anything"... yeah, it's like, "Okay, that's an awkward statement." Yeah, they... What I'm saying is they have no idea.

Michelle: We almost have to come up with a plan or a structure of things that we know they are going to need to know by the time they hit 13.

So you think about it — if your child is going to reach 18, they're leaving school. You know what they have got to get ready for. You've got a preparation plan. Grade 11 and 12, you are on a timeline.

I want to say to parents of 10-year-olds: You are on a timeline. And you don't want to mosey your way through this, right? So you've got two years till they hit high school. And you have got to play this really smart.

Get yourself a list of 20 topics. Say to your child, "Which one do you want to talk about this week?" And then take it at their pace. In other words, you might not be able to give them 100% of the information on that topic because they're not cognitively ready for it. Give them 10% of what they are ready for, and then keep building on it. But you've got to keep showing up.

Lukas: Yeah, that's the consistency piece of it. It is. Yeah. Show up. It's such a great lens to look at it. It's like this opportunity zone because we know when they hit teens, within their brain, they're like, "I don't want to listen to you, loser." Yeah, "Loser, you know nothing. My friends know everything."

Michelle: That's remarkable.

Lukas: Another one that I jotted down as we spoke about — how to have those challenging conversations around sex. How do we have those conversations around body image? And that's... we could talk about that for a podcast in itself.

Michelle: We sure could. Yeah, body image. And it's that changing period of the tweens as well. We touched on — one of the things I really need parents to understand is their relationship with their body is changing.

So you think about growth spurts. You think about their body shape changing. Their whole feels about their body is changing. And they're looking in the mirror going, "I'm changing. I'm looking different. I'm feeling different." Their body is naturally storing fat in preparation to grow.

And so what kid wouldn't feel uncomfortable about how they look? And I think we go like this emergency alarm bells, like, "Oh, you know, all these kids are feeling uncomfortable about their body." Like, duh — wouldn't you? Like, we all did.

And it's this really self-conscious period of life for a reason, because they're all changing. And wouldn't we all — and didn't we all — feel uncomfortable about our body?

So I don't think we need to get like, "Oh, it's a mental health crisis." I actually think we need to go, "Let's safeguard this and let's actually model really health-based strategies to actually pad this journey." Because it's actually really, really normal for them to feel this uncomfortableness.

What I don't think we need to do is dump our own body image insecurities. We live in a different day and age. What maybe happened to us as women — let's just talk from my generation of women — is mothers put their daughters on scales at the end of Christmas to make sure they were a certain weight before they went back to school. We don't live in that day and age.

But I think what we have is a generation of women who are still carrying that baggage. And so when their 11-year-olds look in front of the mirror and say they're fat, we get triggered. And we go into panic zone. And we actually think, "Oh, my daughter's going to stop eating, and she's going to have the journey that I had with my body." And it's not necessarily the case. And I think we have to be really careful that we don't load fire on fire, like you talked about before.

Lukas: And so the "make me feel better" statement — if my child was just that hypothetical, my daughter says, "I'm fat," and then I go, "No, not to try to fix it, makes me feel better. Don't think like that." What's the language to use in that circumstance?

Michelle: Yeah, so — tell me. Tell me. Just get really curious about how she feels. And go, "So tell me, what does fat feel like? Tell me what fat feels like. Talk to me about it." And just be with her with that for a minute. And work out if it's an emergency or not.

Now, to be with how fat feels like with a child, you've got to calm down first. You've got to be regulated to show up for somebody else. Which means that when you hear that word "fat," for a lot of us as women, we go... that's a big word. That's a loaded word for us. So we've got to actually just be regulated for a minute.

And then if a child wants to stand in front of a mirror — like I did at 14 — and pinch my skin and go, "I'm fat," and I have to sit and go with a child, "Okay, so what does fat feel like? And show me that and talk to me about that." And get curious with her for 20 or 30 minutes while she talks about that. And then she talks about how her friends talk about that. And we talk about that for a minute and see where that lands.

Now, I'm not saying that for some kids that won't land in an unhealthy place and it won't be something you have to act on. But for a lot of kids, that's going to land on... and you know what? They've got this. You know, this whole parenting — we've got this. I just think we've got to flip this. They've got it.

Lukas: Yeah, couldn't agree more. They've got it. And that's the parenting fatigue I'm observing when the anticipation of a teen is coming. And they're like, "I'm going to have to do more here. And I've been so heavily involved all the way, and I've made all these decisions." And then they get to teen and they go, "I'm tired. Act like an adult." Where they haven't had the "you've got this."

Michelle: Andrew Huberman talks about a study, and it was the growth mindset team. Yeah, and they're like, "You can do it." And then they had the positive reinforcement — "That's it, you're the best at this." And then they had the third group where they gave them a high five and they tracked their progress.

The high five group outperformed everyone. Yeah. Because acknowledgement of the individual. Yeah. And it's just like, "You are you, and I'm high-fiving you. That's it. Because you're you." And I love that reminder. It's like, celebrate where they're at. And sometimes it's in the friction. That's it. Celebrate the friction. "This really sucks." "Sucks for me too." Yeah, relate to it in that way.

But yeah, that's a little reflection on my own behalf. I just don't think there's one person in the world who hasn't at one point gone, "I feel fat." And you know what? For some kids, they've put on a considerable amount of weight at 11 because their body's storing fat.

So my next point of call would be education. My next point of call would be healthy eating and balanced conversations. Because a lot of 11-year-olds will be stuffing their face with a whole bag of chips because they're not correlating health with what they're putting in their mouth. They've got no impulse control at that age.

And so, like, might be politically incorrect, Lucas, but I don't care. Because you know what? They're going to feel crap if they are eating tons of sugar. So healthy eating would be my next point of call. And then if we're not getting anywhere there, then it might be like, "More on that. Let's treat this more like an emergency. We might need to get some help."

Lukas: Case by case. And encouraging parents — like, you are the number one person that wants the best for your child.

Michelle: Absolutely.

Lukas: So stand on that foundation.

Michelle: Yeah. But also, your child wants the best for themselves. Yeah. So... yeah.

Lukas: The foundation of resilience, which is a beautiful non-clunky segue into your intent behind the Resilient Kids Conference. Where did it come from? Like, what did you observe to be like, "Okay, we're doing this"? Because it's a big commitment.

Michelle: Yeah, tell me about it. Well, Sharon Witt, beautiful author and speaker, actually founded it, I guess, like six or seven years ago. But she handed the baton to me. And I've been a part of it from the very beginning.

And the whole mission of it, I think, is to put on a whole day with the most incredible speakers we can find to really empower parents. There isn't a lot of conferences around that just got to get a whole heap of parents in a room that love their kids intensely.

And when you get that many parents in a room, the atmosphere is just warm. And it's beautiful. And you watch parents come in at the beginning of the day and they've made a commitment to spend their whole Saturday together. And they're often tired when they come in. But they leave smiling. And they leave like, "I'm glad I came."

And it's an incredible day. We make it lively. We make it fun. We make sure that everyone just has a great time. And it's positive. And that's what I want it to be. I want people to just have a good time thinking, reflecting, and finding just light bulb moments and answers for their home.

Lukas: I can really see and observe that the unity... and the friction, once again. It's like, yeah, actually address the elephant in the room. We are loving. We want the best for our children. It's hard. And the most complicated job.

Michelle: It's raw. It's cool. Like, it's a cool day.

Lukas: And what are some of the things you see parents bringing into the room about wanting answers on?

Michelle: We have such a range of parents in terms of the age of their kids. And it's something we really focus on — making sure that parents with kids of little ones and teenagers feel full at the end of the day.

And no matter what age kids that parents have, really the underlying issue is exactly the same. It's connection. It's often handling tension at home. It's how to help families stay connected during the challenging times of parenting. It's understanding their kids' development as well.

So I just feel like, you know, resilience is sort of like a little bit of an overarching — or has been a bit of a buzzword. But it means nothing if it can't hold up under the dark, testing times that are normal in family life. And I think any definition of resilience has to be congruent with the light and shade of life.

And I think hopefully we redefine that. And we don't sidestep that at this conference. I think that we have to acknowledge that life does have its light and shade. And we all go through it.

Lukas: How do you discourage the comparison trap? Because it's something I see time and time again, even for myself being involved in early childhood. And other parents go, "Well, that's fine for you. You've got it sorted." And I was like, "I do not. No."

Michelle: I think I do it by making fun of myself. Because honestly, like, my 24-year-old put his arm around me the other day. And I've got three boys, one husband — two kids. I call them my three boys. But I'm the most emotional out of the three of us. So if there's anyone going to lose the plot in our house, it'll be me. So they're all very even. And if anyone gets upset, it's me.

So I had gotten emotional about something. I ended up apologizing, saying sorry. But my 24-year-old put his arm around me and goes, "Don't worry, Mom. You're plenty good at a lot of other things."

And by the time you have a 24-year-old, I tell you what — what I want with my kids is authentic connection. I want them to love me for me because they've seen me at my best and my worst. I want to love my kids for who they are because I've seen them at their best and their worst. That's what I want.

And when moms come to this conference — and dads — what I want them to understand is that their kids need them. They don't need the mom that they see on Instagram with the fancy shoes who they want to be like. They don't need the mom next door who they wish they were like. They actually need them.

And that's what I hope parents get out of this conference — that they need them.

Lukas: And I love that point of demonstrating your best and worst. Yeah. It's a personal journey of mine, growing up in a quite chaotic household and saying to myself, "I'm never going to be the parent that gets emotional." Yeah. And I pat and tattooed that in.

But then when it came to raising my children, I'm not demonstrating to them any range of emotion. There was all right, "Stay on the one. Stay on the one. Stay on the one. Keep it cool." And then working with my psych over the years — my son going on his diagnosis journey that I had quite a negative connotation to — the hardest mirror that he represented was all the stuff that I felt challenging myself in my childhood. He was mirroring back. Which was then spiking me up to be an internal nine and be like, "No, I need to be one. I need to show him that I'm... keep it cool, keep it cool."

Meanwhile, physical, tangible learner. I'm not demonstrating any emotional regulation skills with him. So I actually had to start by — because I would one, one, one, one, one, and then, "Fine, I'm out." And I'd go somewhere else. I'd leave the situation so then I could be like, "Ahh," and release my 10, and then come back and demonstrate a one.

Michelle: This is gold, Lucas.

Lukas: So I had to learn to fake a three to start with.

Michelle: This is gold.

Lukas: I had to be like, "I'm starting to feel really frustrated." And faking it. And then faking a five. And then, "I'm going to take some time." And then come back and fake a three. And then he's watching me do that. And I've seen him do it because he's very number-oriented. I can actually talk to him about the number scale now.

Michelle: So good.

Lukas: And I can say, "All right, I think you're sitting about an eight." And he's like, "Okay, how are we going to bring it down to a six? How are you going to bring it down to a six?" "I'm going to go do this thing, come back again."

But it was a huge thing because I had all this internal guilt because it was my internal frustration that I was just... I can't demonstrate it. And I was feeling guilty about it because I wanted to show him I'm the best dad, I'm the best dad. And wasn't willing to show him my worst and be humble enough to apologize.

Michelle: So what happens when kids don't see a full range of emotion? Stop it. Like, come on. So what happens when kids just see like number one dad all the time?

Lukas: It's just all the one — or 10 as well. Well, the dads want to hold it together and then go, "I've had enough!" Bang. It's a 10. And then the child's like, "When is it going to happen?" Or the mom — I'm talking dads because my experience — but moms as well. "I'm going to be the good mom, the good mom." Bang. And the child said, "Whoa, where? When's that? There was Mount Vesuvius. There was no indication that was going to go off."

Michelle: Tears. We need to fist pump through the thing. I'm serious. It's so real, this.

Lukas: I've applied that lens to schooling and how we support children at school as well. Compliance being the one, and then when a child demonstrates a 10, "And bad. And they're trying to hold it in so much. Hold, hold, hold, hold, hold." And then when they finally have an emotional response, they're like, "No, that's bad. Don't do that. A one's good, a 10's bad." But how about taking the child on the journey? And like, "I can support them in a..."

Michelle: How many parents tell themselves the most horrible story about themselves every time they hit like a six or a seven at home?

So how many moms get home from a terrible day at work? They don't feel like cooking, or they make an average dinner, or they make like toast for dinner. They flake out on the couch. They don't organize their kids' homework. Kids go to bed late. Next day in the morning, it's a mess. They feel so bad about themselves. They get grumpy. They have a bad 48 hours. Their kids see them really average.

And they wrap themselves in guilt instead of showing their kids how to get out of average. I say, "Bring it on. Bring on well." You've got it. You've got this.

Lukas: Yes. And that's what co-creation of life is about.

Michelle: Absolutely. And you know, there's been times when my kids have pointed something out. It's pulled me out of a bit of a loop as well.

Lukas: Absolutely. Without that accountability, without that communication. Yeah. And I think the impact of that internal scale that we're tend to be teaching — or I was teaching my child — can then, I speculate, be impacting children's resistance to and refusal.

Michelle: 100%.

Lukas: So I've got my little water bottle here, and it's like they're internalizing. They're at a 10, they're at a 10, but they look like they're at a one. And then we go, "Just do this thing." And they go, "Nah." Because the thought of that failure is like just teetering there, ready to overflow. And we're like, "Just try it." And they're like, "No."

Michelle: So taking — what's you know — where are you going to, where do you need to go if you need to feel safe? Yeah. So there's no authenticity between what they're showing on the outside and what's going on on the inside. So if we don't — that is masking.

Lukas: How? Yeah. Hello. If we don't have that, how do we expect our kids to have that?

Michelle: So, Resilient Kids Conference. I hope it's authentic. That's what I hope. Yeah. With speakers, you, Maggie. You always bring it. I'll try to contribute in my own way. We'll be talking about home life, which I'm super excited about.

Lukas: Oh yeah. Honored to contribute with you. It's going to be amazing. What's some of the feedback you've got from the people that have been to the Resilient Kids?

Michelle: I think just how relatable it is. And I think how emotionally moved they felt. And how seen they felt. That they actually felt like what we... they felt like they were being spoken to personally. Like they just weren't in a crowd of people with information. That they felt like it was something that was delivered to them very personally. And that they could apply it to their home.

And I think that that means the world to me — that if people are in 500, 600, 700, 800 people, that they feel like they're being spoken to personally. I just love that.

Lukas: It's unity. And I just want to honor you for the effort you've put into it. It's a big undertaking. But the feedback I've heard from people that have been to it, and also the people that wanting to go to it because they've heard from other people about the impact... you know, Wearthy's mission is to reach as many children as possible, support as many children as possible. So I really thank you for contributing that. Coming on today with such a wonderful insight, as always helping me as a parent and helping our listeners as parents as well.

I'll put all links in the show notes on the conference, also the tween book. And when we launch this podcast — too bad if you're listening to it later — when this goes live, we'll do a bit of a book giveaway as well, which will be awesome.

Can you give any secret squirrel information about next books or anything like that?

Michelle: Can I? I know I wasn't sure to mention it. I know there's two. But the one for kids that's coming out, following on from my puberty books, is "Where Babies Come From." The book I said I would never write. But it is funny, Lucas. I have been working very hard on it. And it's been four years in the making.

And yeah, if you want a good laugh with your kids and you want to take the awkward out of it, get ready. It is on.

Lukas: I think you've just got such a gift for humor in such a serious message. You know, I feel emotional one minute and then you make me laugh at myself the next. So it's such a gift. And you're amazing.

Michelle: No, thank you. We've got the Romantic Chatterbox, and he's heading up the whole chapter on romantic feelings and how to handle the "who likes who" conversation on the playground. Which is real for that age, isn't it? Like there's so much pressure — "Who do you like? And who likes who?"

And so there's a whole chapter on that. As well as the whole, you know, beautiful focus on crazy, cool facts about babies. And I find that when I go into grade five and six classrooms, boys particularly, they are obsessed with the medical facts of babies. So there's a whole chapter that really dives into the medical, like, just interesting facts about umbilical cords and all this stuff. So it's going to be fun.

Lukas: Can't wait. When is it?

Michelle: Projected 12 weeks. We're gonna be on... 12 weeks.

Lukas: I know. Really? Oh, I know. I'm pumped.

Michelle: I like... yeah, you're pumped. I'm not sleeping. Let's do it.

Lukas: Yeah, you got 300 pages to edit. Enjoy.

Michelle: So last... well, Michelle, you're a treasure. You're a great friend. Thank you for contributing to me as a parent. Thank you for contributing to the society that my children will continue to be a part of. So you're great.

Lukas: Feelings, Lucas. Great respect for what you're doing.